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> Stolen/Used gear at begining of play, Do you allow it?
The Jopp
post Jan 14 2010, 09:47 AM
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So, how many GM’s allows for stolen/used weapons and gear at beginning of play?

Personally I see no problem with it as it comes with certain problems:

Item used in a crime under investigation
Now, what could this apply to? Mostly weapons and vehicles but I’d think that identified hardware such as a commlink (if it is identified through some hardware check).

Item Stolen
This could include EVERYTHING – And why shouldn’t a runner have some (or a lot) stolen goods? The Cybered to the gills ex-mil streetsam might have gone AWOL and taken the hardware with him. Riggers stealing vehicles, you jest good sir, they would never…Oh, you would. Software? Well, hacked software could be classified as “stolen” and could probably be identified when it is used, too bad for the hacker if someone sends a signal to his programs to shut down.

Item used
This can also be applied for everything – how many runners have spanking new equipment? Poorly taken care of guns? Glitchy cyberware? Old commlink? The GM can enforce a multitude of small glitches in play whenever they feel like if the character have programs that are prone to failure, package loss for the hacker giving them a temporary -1 Matrix initiative.

Item used could easily be applied to every vehicle a character has, or drones, especially stolen vehicles should have this unless they are stolen from a new car dealer.

Yes – in the end it’s about saving money, but it has it’s drawbacks.
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Silverback
post Jan 14 2010, 10:00 AM
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In case of vehicles (especially mundane cars and motorcycles) I would allow it. They may have accumulated some stress and might fail to start in an appropriate situation, but for the purpose of getting from A to B they are sufficient.
However, I would not allow it for heavily costomized (unless strictly cosmetical).

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Thanee
post Jan 14 2010, 10:33 AM
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Used is ok, as long as there is a disadvantage to balance the lower cost (like with cyber-/bioware since Augmentation, where used items have x1.2 Essense cost).

Otherwise, Resources are not necessarily money you had and spent, but the value of the stuff you have, when the game starts.

It doesn't matter, whether a gun was stolen or acquired through a fixer. As long as it works the same way, it costs the same Resources.

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The Jopp
post Jan 14 2010, 11:07 AM
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Well, for used items I would give the item a Gremlin quality equal to the percentage reduction of the item (per 10 percent).

20% would give a Rating 2 Gremlin quality. This would mean that the weapon actually have some quality flaws due to heavy use or the character hasn't been taking care of the equipent in question.

In the case of heavily customized vehicles and weapons then I would only allow the base cost of the gun/vehicle to receive a price reduction. Modifications are added later on.

Armors would loose 1 point of Ballistic or Impact per 10% reduction chosen by the player, the armor would also look more worn and might be a bit obvious.
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DireRadiant
post Jan 14 2010, 02:03 PM
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All the gear the PC started with at the beginning of the game was stolen. It wasn't bought in a store with legally earned cash.

If the PC wants more gear, they can take a Negative quality or two to get extra gear.

If the PC wants a story hook, they can take a Negative Quality like Hunted or Enemy, with the explanation being they stole soemthing from the party.
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Johnny Hammersti...
post Jan 14 2010, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 14 2010, 06:07 AM) *
Well, for used items I would give the item a Gremlin quality equal to the percentage reduction of the item (per 10 percent).

20% would give a Rating 2 Gremlin quality. This would mean that the weapon actually have some quality flaws due to heavy use or the character hasn't been taking care of the equipent in question.

In the case of heavily customized vehicles and weapons then I would only allow the base cost of the gun/vehicle to receive a price reduction. Modifications are added later on.

Armors would loose 1 point of Ballistic or Impact per 10% reduction chosen by the player, the armor would also look more worn and might be a bit obvious.



I like this idea a lot, but I think it would be more fun if the players didn't really know how bad the gremlins would be when they bought used vehicles/equipment.

I wouldn't allow it on heavily modified vehicles if those mods were chosen by the player.

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DWC
post Jan 14 2010, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jan 14 2010, 09:03 AM) *
All the gear the PC started with at the beginning of the game was stolen. It wasn't bought in a store with legally earned cash.

If the PC wants more gear, they can take a Negative quality or two to get extra gear.

If the PC wants a story hook, they can take a Negative Quality like Hunted or Enemy, with the explanation being they stole soemthing from the party.


I was about to post something long and drawn out, but this sums it up neatly.
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Malachi
post Jan 15 2010, 03:16 AM
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At chargen, I have characters buy everything at straight book price. No modifications.
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Whipstitch
post Jan 15 2010, 03:42 AM
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QUOTE (Thanee @ Jan 14 2010, 06:33 AM) *
Otherwise, Resources are not necessarily money you had and spent, but the value of the stuff you have, when the game starts.



That's how I view it. The only reason I'd apply the discounts is if I wanted them to have a bit more gear starting out than usual without having to mess with build point totals too much. Starting resources is simply a game balance conceit used to put players on roughly even footing at the beginning of play. How they acquired stuff doesn't matter yet.
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Neraph
post Jan 15 2010, 07:16 AM
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QUOTE (Johnny Hammersticks @ Jan 14 2010, 10:28 AM) *
I like this idea a lot, but I think it would be more fun if the players didn't really know how bad the gremlins would be when they bought used vehicles/equipment.

What do you mean my -20% stolen vehicle gives me Gremlins 4 and Unlucky while I'm driving it!?!
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The Jopp
post Jan 15 2010, 07:57 AM
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I would have random glitches.

A gun jams and the character needs to use a complex action to clear the chamber.
The gearbox gets stuck in reverse when the character makes a 180 turn
One of the hackers program "twitches" for a combat turn and is effectively zero.
The clip falls out of the gun for no apparent reason
A random sprite makes his home for a day in one team members commlink

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The Jopp
post Jan 15 2010, 08:01 AM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jan 15 2010, 08:16 AM) *
What do you mean my -20% stolen vehicle gives me Gremlins 4 and Unlucky while I'm driving it!?!


Exactly. As a player one should be aware of these things since one has no idea about the status of the vehicle unless you take it to an autoshop before driving it.
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Saint Sithney
post Jan 15 2010, 08:23 AM
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I might let someone get a discount for bulk.
Like, 20 mid/low end comlinks at 50% off. It's easy as shit to steal coms, so a bulk thing should be way closer to the 10% of total price a fence pays for stolen goods.
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The Jopp
post Jan 15 2010, 08:34 AM
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If someone wants a Used, Stolen, Under Criminal Investigation Vehicle [total -60% price] I would allow it.

Why? They would be able to get access to vehicles you don't normally see - IF it fits the character.

Smuggler with a light LAV
AI with a host of drones
A ganger with a tricked out bike
A runner with his "old" trusty signature gun (prone to failure)

If they choose to have no SIN they would get a 20% discount on all items and they would be counted as Stolen (No SIN no legal purchases).

They can argue that they bought it with an earlier SIN but in that case it counts as stolen NOW since they lack the SIN in question.
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Neraph
post Jan 15 2010, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 15 2010, 02:34 AM) *
If someone wants a Used, Stolen, Under Criminal Investigation Vehicle [total -60% price] I would allow it.

Why? They would be able to get access to vehicles you don't normally see - IF it fits the character.

Smuggler with a light LAV
AI with a host of drones
A ganger with a tricked out bike
A runner with his "old" trusty signature gun (prone to failure)

If they choose to have no SIN they would get a 20% discount on all items and they would be counted as Stolen (No SIN no legal purchases).

They can argue that they bought it with an earlier SIN but in that case it counts as stolen NOW since they lack the SIN in question.

Sure that would let them afford these objects, but the Availability of most air vehicles still places them firmly beyond the realm of chargen (barring possibly a Restricted Gear quality).

QUOTE (Whipstitch Posted Yesterday, 09:42 PM )
Starting resources is simply a game balance conceit used to put players on roughly even footing at the beginning of play. How they acquired stuff doesn't matter yet.

This is how I run it, but with the word "concept" instead of "conceit" (although I figure that's what he meant).
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Mongoose
post Jan 15 2010, 05:50 PM
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Unless the fact that its hot, used, or has a criminal history directly affects how well it works, I wouldn't allow any price discount. Characters are limited to 250K¥ worth of "retail cost" goods for a reason, and it doesn't matter how they aquired them. If they got them as hand me downs from cousin Jimmy who stole them from the military surplus lot, they still cost full retail at character creation. They could take some negative qualities (like, say a military detective / hardware recovery agent as an enemy) to cover the background of the stuff they own.
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Neraph
post Jan 15 2010, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE (Mongoose @ Jan 15 2010, 11:50 AM) *
Unless the fact that its hot, used, or has a criminal history directly affects how well it works, I wouldn't allow any price discount. Characters are limited to 250K¥ worth of "retail cost" goods for a reason, and it doesn't matter how they aquired them. If they got them as hand me downs from cousin Jimmy who stole them from the military surplus lot, they still cost full retail at character creation. They could take some negative qualities (like, say a military detective / hardware recovery agent as an enemy) to cover the background of the stuff they own.

330,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . 50 BP for 250,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , 10 BP for Born Rich, another 10 BP for another 50,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , and then 30 BP of In Debt for an extra 30,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . A net BP cost of 40 BP.
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Mongoose
post Jan 15 2010, 06:20 PM
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OK, fair enough. I suppose you could use the "in debt" flaw to simulate maintenance / repair expenses on used gear or some such, plus the chance of "recovery agents" taking stolen gear back if you wanted.
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The Jopp
post Jan 15 2010, 06:23 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jan 15 2010, 06:41 PM) *
Sure that would let them afford these objects, but the Availability of most air vehicles still places them firmly beyond the realm of chargen (barring possibly a Restricted Gear quality).


The Cascade Skraacha is Availability 12

If they buy it used they have availability 16

Then you add Restricted Gear Quality
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Randian Hero
post Jan 15 2010, 06:23 PM
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There is something kinda eerie about walking around using somebody's old bioware...
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Neraph
post Jan 15 2010, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (Randian Hero @ Jan 15 2010, 12:23 PM) *
There is something kinda eerie about walking around using somebody's old bioware...

Player - "All of my cyber/bio is Alpha-grade, but secondhand."
GM - "So.... You mean it's all standard grade..?"
Player - "No. It's secondhand Alpha-grade."
GM - ".. Ok."
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Neraph
post Jan 15 2010, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (Mongoose @ Jan 15 2010, 12:20 PM) *
OK, fair enough. I suppose you could use the "in debt" flaw to simulate maintenance / repair expenses on used gear or some such, plus the chance of "recovery agents" taking stolen gear back if you wanted.

With 330,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) of gear I'd like to see them try and take back 30,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) of it...
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Mongoose
post Jan 15 2010, 06:32 PM
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If they can't take it back, then "in debt" isn't a negative quality.
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Neraph
post Jan 15 2010, 06:34 PM
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QUOTE (Mongoose @ Jan 15 2010, 12:32 PM) *
If they can't take it back, then "in debt" isn't a negative quality.

Of course it is. The collecters show up at inopportune times, and they have to make you keep buying new ammo. That's annoying.
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Saint Sithney
post Jan 16 2010, 07:39 AM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jan 15 2010, 10:28 AM) *
Player - "All of my cyber/bio is Alpha-grade, but secondhand."
GM - "So.... You mean it's all standard grade..?"
Player - "No. It's secondhand Alpha-grade."
GM - ".. Ok."



Well, the 1.2x essence cost is factored in after the .8x, which ends up being .96x essence. That's still technically better than standard for the exact same price.

Also, used cyber fits a lot of char concepts. Personally, I like the idea of a lot of grunt level cyber for ex-military themed chars having been salvaged from the bodies of soldiers who died or were wounded in combat. A whole, "you get the gear we have," kind of aesthetic.
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