Stolen/Used gear at begining of play, Do you allow it? Options

[Emy]

Well, the 1.2x essence cost is factored in after the .8x, which ends up being .96x essence. That's still technically better than standard for the exact same price.

Multiplication is commutative. It doesn't matter which is applied first.

(Correct me if I'm wrong and Shadowrun uses something similar to "D&D math".)

[Thanee]

Multiplication is commutative. It doesn't matter which is applied first.

You are right.

1 x 1.2 x .8 = .96 AND 1 x .8 x 1.2 = .96 - doesn't matter in what order you multiply. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Whipstitch]

This is how I run it, but with the word "concept" instead of "conceit" (although I figure that's what he meant).

It's the art school nerd in me talking-- "conceit" has been sort of hijacked over the years and is sometimes used synonymously with "device" these days, at least in artsy circles. Strictly speaking, a literary conceit usually has to do with metaphors, but a lot of the time the term would get informally trotted out whenever we were talking about somewhat arbitrary devices or conventions that happen to be present in a work. Usually they were of the sort that relied on the audience's indulgence/suspension of disbelief. For example, talking animals that the audience can understand but the humans in the play cannot are sometimes referred to as a sort of conceit, although god knows my professors would have required me to be more specific when writing a paper. I guess the term just seemed to fit naturally to me in this case; after all, a table top rpg isn't likely to get very far if people are unwilling to accept a few arbitrary rules here and there.

[Falconer]

The entire point of chargen is that everyone comes out roughly equivalent. This includes equipment. So no, those mods do not apply.

The point is the character has it, it doesn't matter if it's hot, or whatever. (and in fact, for the vast majority of gear... R without a license or F... doesn't make much difference... it's still contraband).


A lot of those modifiers only matter if you're trying to sell it after play starts... which is simply an end run around the starting cash rules. (no I can't set 10BP aside and have 50k in the bank at the start of play). So no, I'm not a big fan of this is hot/stolen/etc. Even if it were... I assume your stolen westwind has been scrubbed (had tags removed, someone's changed the registration etc...).




Emy et alias:
Actually in the case of cyber/bio... they SHOULD have done it that way but they didn't. The way SR4 rules work is you add all the cyber bio mods together, then multiply the final result. (EG: alpha + biocompatibility + used... -20 -10 +20... final -10%).

This also means half-cost used alpha is not better than normal basic grade cyber... as it's just +-20%. So no you don't save a few % essence for the exact same cost.

I initially argued it should be multipflicative, pointed at augmentation... then realized in the reprint they changed all the numbers! Still wondering when the hell they'll publish the errata for that. (in any case, if you look at cyberware suites examples in the new printings it's obvious they add the mods, then multiply, not multiply through).

[Karoline]

Of course if you get into the issue of getting a discount for having stolen goods at CG, you also get into the issue of getting a discount/free gear for having a relevant skill. For example, a hacker with a good software skill could easily claim she wrote all her own programs, and thus should start with everything at R6 for free without it degrading or being traceable.

The techhead should get a discount for being able to work on their own drones, and the animal trainer shouldn't have to pay for training at all.

Now while I like the idea of this to some extent, it quickly grows unbalanced as people get several thousand nuyen worth of stuff for free, or several k worth of discounts. This quickly makes characters unequal at CG as is intended.

[Falconer]

Actually Karoline... the play does support that somewhat. A gearhead can start play w/ modifications from arsenal but most people forget the labor. (it's like going to the mechanic w/ your car... parts cost X... labor costs Y more). Problem is most GM's don't realize the cost of a mod is only the parts.



Good example here... mage starts play with a lots of raw reagants and the tools to refine them.

Refining reagants doubles their value. Turning the refined into ritual materials then doubles them again. However, this can take a lot of time... especially if the mage needs to summon/bind/ritual target something NOW not in a day or two.

[etherial]

Actually in the case of cyber/bio... they SHOULD have done it that way but they didn't. The way SR4 rules work is you add all the cyber bio mods together, then multiply the final result. (EG: alpha + biocompatibility + used... -20 -10 +20... final -10%).

This also means half-cost used alpha is not better than normal basic grade cyber... as it's just +-20%. So no you don't save a few % essence for the exact same cost.

I initially argued it should be multipflicative, pointed at augmentation... then realized in the reprint they changed all the numbers! Still wondering when the hell they'll publish the errata for that. (in any case, if you look at cyberware suites examples in the new printings it's obvious they add the mods, then multiply, not multiply through).

cite?

[Karoline]

cite?

Notice he said SHOULD not IS, so there isn't a site. I agree, it is fairly stupid to do it they way they do it.

[etherial]

The way SR4 rules work is you add all the cyber bio mods together, then multiply the final result. (EG: alpha + biocompatibility + used... -20 -10 +20... final -10%).

This also means half-cost used alpha is not better than normal basic grade cyber... as it's just +-20%. So no you don't save a few % essence for the exact same cost.

This is what I wanted cited.

[Karoline]

This is what I wanted cited.

Oh, I thought that is what he was saying is how it should work, not how it actually does.

I can cite fairly easily where it says that isn't how it works.

Nicola is looking for some high-class muscle replacement
for her character Clutterbone, but since she’s short
on nuyen, she decides to defy the bad reputation of secondhand
cyberware and tries to acquire a Rating 2 alphaware
muscle replacement implant.
The base Essence cost of the implant would be 1.92
(the original 2 Essence cost for Rating 2 muscle replacement
x 0.8 for alphaware grade x 1.2 for the second-hand
state of the implant), while the Availability would be 9R
(10R for the original implant,–1 for being second-hand)
and the cost 10,000¥ (10,000¥ x 2 x 0.5).

Seems fairly straitforward. For some reason the Devs even sat there and looked at the absurdity of second hand alpha ware and said 'sure, why not?'.

[Saint Sithney]

then realized in the reprint they changed all the numbers! Still wondering when the hell they'll publish the errata for that. (in any case, if you look at cyberware suites examples in the new printings it's obvious they add the mods, then multiply, not multiply through).

Lost erratta? I bet there's some reward for finding that in Big D's will.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Falconer]

Now I point you at 48 and the cyberware suites.

Again they list it as a 0.9 multiplier however in my second printing they've changed the numbers in the chart.
(they also changed other things from the original).

Jumping straight to the Zeiss SenseSation Line... (since it has normal, alpha, & beta versions of the same kit though it's the same for all of them). It has Rating 3 cyereyes, rating 2 cyberears, simrig, and a rating 3 radar.

Package costs, Base cost ala carte == 1.5
Standard: 1.35 /(-10%) == 1.5
Alpha: 1.05 / (-20%-10%) == 1.5
Beta: 0.90 / (-30%-10%) == 1.5

In the first printing: The same values are 1.35, 1.08, and .95 (which are equivalent to 1.5 * grade * 90%). Before dumpshock crashed and we lost the archives... devs posted that this was incorrect and was corrected in the second printing.


Like I said, I don't agree with this (as I believe it makes more sense in a balanced system for increasing marginal costs... IE: delta + adapsin + biocompatibility == 30% original essence cost now... I believe they should have been multiplied through rather than added as it makes it harder to decrease essence to zero... and when you add them, new tech theoretically can reach a point where things cost 0 essence (or even return it). On the other hand, multiplied commutative percentile reduction systems are asymptotic to 0, they can come close but never reach it.

However from a standpoint of only arguing RAW/RAI. The devs don't intend for them to be multiplied but added... don't ask me why.

[The Jopp]

On the topic that players can/try/will start with gear for free (hacker has coded programs) I would use the following.

The base prices in the books are for:
A: Legally Purchased
B: The cost represents the time for the hacker to code the programs

Modifications to this:
Stolen: Cheaper price because the hacker stole the software and cracked it (Might be DRM on it, up to GM)
Used: Availability +4 but 20% cheaper (Yes, I would use Used Vehicle rules here, harder to get but cheaper)
Used in a crime: Anyone getting a data log can now see if the same hacker pulled this crime too.

So, no, nothing is for free - but getting things cheaper at chargen should be allowed, after all, you can get it more expensive and you can get equipment not normally available (Restricted gear)