SR4A - Mage/Hacker?, I missed something somewhere Options

[tete]

Whats keeping a Mage character from being an excellent Hacker? If I'm reading it right (which I am sure I am not) they can just take trodes for VR and be every bit as effective as someone with cyberware and take no magic loss. What rule did I miss?

[Ancient History]

You didn't. There's nothing to stop a magician from also being a hacker. Granted, to be the very best at both will take a ton of karma and probably a few sacrifices, but it is by no means mutually exclusive.

[Summerstorm]

Nothing... Everybody can be a Hacker... but i recommend some cyberware. There are a lot of systems which improve hacking and rigging, and you better shell out the essence for that, or you won't be the "best of the best"

For example the control nanites, the control rig, the encephalon, mathematical spu, the simsense booster and a lot more. So either you shell out these 2.0 essence or so... or the other dude will have a +2 dice bonus on most actions and have 1 IP more and such.

Oh also "fluff"-wise the signal is better, faster and crispier if you had a datajack... internal comlink and simsense and such helps too. I like giving my characters all that stuff, even if not often needed... just because

[Glyph]

Other than magical or technomancer abilities, which require the appropriate quality at char-gen, there is nothing stopping characters from mixing and matching their specialties as they please. But mages and hackers both have specialties that are very expensive, so combining the two will require sacrifices.

[tete]

*mind blown* That seams almost contradictory to everything I ever knew about Shadowrun... Magic and Machine were always at odds, at leased a bit.

[Glyph]

Well, like Summerstorm said, a mage who doesn't get certain 'ware will be at a disadvantage. And a mage who does get it will wind up taking a hit on Magic. So magic and technology are definitely still at odds.

Honestly, while it is possible to combine nearly anything, that doesn't always mean it is effective, or a good idea. Some roles and skill sets combine well, either because they are cheap to get, or because they use the same Attribute(s). A shaman who is also a face, for example, is using skills that both rely on Willpower and Charisma. A street samurai who is a sniper and getaway driver in addition to his normal skills only needs the long arms and pilot ground vehicle skills at a moderate rating.

A hacker/mage, though, is combining specialties that are each comprised of multiple skills, and both specialties are also very demanding on resources. A mage has the sorcery and conjuring skill groups, assensing, astral combat, and arcana skills, spells to buy, and foci to buy and bond, in addition to the magician quality (and possibly the mentor spirit quality) and the Magic Attribute itself. A hacker has the cracking and electronic skill groups, other technical skills that would be useful such as forgery, an upgraded commlink and lots of utilities to buy, and assorted 'ware to make him a better hacker. Heck, a pure mage or hacker is spreading himself too thin if he gets everything on one of those lists. Trying to do both will generally result in a character that is mediocre at either role.

[Medicineman]

*mind blown* That seams almost contradictory to everything I ever knew about Shadowrun... Magic and Machine were always at odds, at leased a bit.

Well Sam Werner was the "Archetype Decker/Shaman " and that was allready in SR2 Times (Mid 2050's ?)
And as others posted before ,it is possible to combine every Archetype (except TM/Mage 'cause its mutually exclusive) but some Combinations "Suck".Hacker/Mage is one of them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

with a Combinationdance that doesn't suck
Medicineman

[Kalvan]

It's quite possible to be both, if you budget your skills properly. But almost certainly you have to make some consessions somewhere. Do you shave bald and limit yourself to wearing a yarmulke, or do keep that stylish look (what ever it may be) many magicians (and hackers) prefer outside the run, and take the essence hit with a datajack? Do you spend your starting cred on computer/electronic toys, chips and soldering squipment, docs, and application tools, or do you spend it on telesma, reagents, tomes, and formula design software? What tradidion do you choose, and how do you integrate it with your conputer skills, or do you? These are all very important choices, and must be answered as only you know how (probably with a lot of trial and error too).

[hobgoblin]

a adept/hacker is probably a better combo then a mage/hacker...

[Larsine]

Well Sam Werner was the "Archetype Decker/Shaman " and that was allready in SR2 Times (Mid 2050's ?)

Nope, Sam Verner was already a Decker/Shaman under SR1.

In SR1 there was actually a rule that made magic and decking not mix very well:

Virtual Realities page 52 had two suggestions. Either you add the Magic attribute to all decking target numbers, or you att the Sorcery skill to all decking attributes.

Lars

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Honestly, while it is possible to combine nearly anything, that doesn't always mean it is effective, or a good idea.

It's always a good idea not to be a one trick pony - and while you can get by while running without fighting or magic, getting by without tech is pretty much impossible.

Some roles and skill sets combine well, either because they are cheap to get, or because they use the same Attribute(s).

Which makes a Mage/Tech Guy relying on Logic quite good.

[Glyph]

It's always a good idea not to be a one trick pony - and while you can get by while running without fighting or magic, getting by without tech is pretty much impossible.

Combining different abilities is good, but some combos are not as workable as others. Giving a hermetic mage a bit of tech skill is different than trying to combine two of the most expensive options in the game, with the net effect of diluting both of them too much.

Which makes a Mage/Tech Guy relying on Logic quite good.

Not really. While a hermetic mage and a hacker may share the same two key Attributes, they still remain too expensive, cost-wise, to be a good combination, unless it is a very high BP game.

I'm not saying that you can't have a mage with some tertiary ability in hacking. I'm only addressing the original post, which posits that it is easy to have a mage who is just as good at hacking as a mundane. It isn't easy. There are only so many points to go around.

[tete]

Traditionally the group I ran with most of my shadowrun life. Someone may die when we all had 300+ karma and over a million nuyen earned. Usually you would earn about 500+ karma and 10 or so million nuyen before you died, I no longer live in that city but at leased one character has survived past the 1k karma mark. Our GM was not easy, we are over the top careful including adding a mole, running the whole mission through VR first etc.

[The Jake]

Decking and magic aren't mutually exclusive anymore. It used to be but not anymore. It hasn't been that way since SR1 (when I started playing a decker/shaman and ate the penalty - I was inspired by Sam Verner).

You can get simsense boosters for your commlink, use trodes, etc, all without taking the essence hit. Granted you miss out of a DP bonus of +2 or +2 for enchephalons or math CPU but if you're playing a mage/hacker, you aren't doing it to be a primary hacker for the party but a secondary (unless your party composition is a complete fail).
Also if you go for a Logic based tradition (e.g. Hermetic) you can double up as a skill monkey. If you're willing to take the essence hit, so much the better, you become more competitive in the hacking arena at the expense of your magic.

I've seen rigger/mage combinations work a treat too, using spirits to possess drones and cars as prepared vessels combining tech with magic.

You just have to acknowledge that one of these areas will be your primary domain with another as a secondary - and that secondary will never be as good as your primary domain without cost.

- J.

[Karoline]

a adept/hacker is probably a better combo then a mage/hacker...

I actually stated this out once, and you can actually make a much better hacker via being an adept than just being a regular old hacker. The biggest kicker is the improved ability (hacking) and (cybercombat) skills, and if he really wants (Software/hardware) for programing and making his own equipment. In a real pinch she can even make use of neocortical nanites for a nice +3 bonus, though it is a bit expensive and only lasts a few weeks, but it is an option.

Might be slightly behind by lacking an IP, but can still get up to 4 I believe by getting that new IP booster in unwired which doesn't require any cyber, or by just getting the maxed out Improved initiative power at later levels and hacking via AR and thus having no risk of feedback.

It is a fairly expensive path mind you and doesn't leave alot of room for a secondary skillset such as face or combat, but there is still some room to wriggle it in there, especially after some karma.

[The Jake]

Adept/hackers are indeed awesome. I would dearly love to play a combat hacker/adept at some stage but its lower on the priority list.

- J.

[LivingOxymoron]

As a variation on the theme, I once played a Mystic Adept/Hacker type. His background was as a retired UCAS Army Intelligence Analyst/Recon. I put points into things like Data Search, Photographic Memory, 3D Memory, etc on the Adept side, with spells like Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, Detection spells, and Oxygenate (he was a combat diver).

It was a pretty awesome concept.

Adept/hackers are indeed awesome. I would dearly love to play a combat hacker/adept at some stage but its lower on the priority list.

- J.

[BetaFlame]

I'm trying to build a Hermatic Mage/Hacker right now.

Its rough going 0_0

[Karoline]

I'm trying to build a Hermatic Mage/Hacker right now.

Its rough going 0_0

Yeah, mage is much more difficult than adept since you can't really overlap anything at all like you can with adept. Closest you can get is an increased log spell to give a few extra dice, but that'll likely be canceled out by the -2 from sustaining.

[BetaFlame]

I was actually thinking a B&E expert, combining hacking around security cams, good hardware skill to break open maglocks, and utility spells like Shape Metal.

[Karoline]

Ah, well in that case a point of essence to get some cerebral boosters, muscle toner, and a cyberfoot to put a nanohive into to get the neocortical nanties and those ones that give you a +3 to all int linked skills.

Makes you much better at sneaking, picking lock, breaking through maglock, hacking, and even arcana, not to mention gives you a bit of skill with a gun (high AGI) and makes you better at spotting stuff (Bonus to int linked skills). A point of magic is expensive, and it'll cost you a good 15ish BP worth of gear, but the bonuses will be quite nice.

[The Jake]

Could go for Logic based skill monkey?

Hermetic mage + (all that ' ware) + any medical skill/mechanical skill/programming/etc.
They may not be uber in combat out the gate, but they would be a brilliant support character for any party.

- J.

[Karoline]

Yeah, no reason to not at least put 1 point into all logic based skills since that'll give you 1+7(ish from logic itself)+3 neocortical = 11 DP out of the bat for any logic based.

Same goes for Int based for a large part, as you'll have the +3 from the other nanites, but there aren't alot of int based ones besides perception and the outdoors group.