Direct Damage Spell Successes = Increased DV Question Options

[harlokin]

Would somebody please direct me to where the stupid rule increasing the DV for Direct Damage Spells with successes was made optional?

Thanks

[Machiavelli]

Can´t remember such a rule. I only know about the rule that raises the drain with every success used for increasing the DV.

[Karoline]

Can´t remember such a rule. I only know about the rule that raises the drain with every success used for increasing the DV.

Seconded.

Might be a house rule you've seen on the threads somewhere, but I don't think it is an official optional rule.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

SR4A, p. 204

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

SR4A, p. 204

Last Paragraph on that page... Under Damage Value...

Keep the Faith

[Visigoth]

On pg 204 the third paragraph does say that: "After the Spellcasting is resisted the caster chooses whether or not to apply any net hits to increase the damage value of the spell as normal".

I have to say it will be a very rare time for me to not apply the extra damage.

Visigoth

[RedeemerofOgar]

Visigoth - the point being, if you choose to accept the increased damage, it comes at the cost of increased drain.

...assuming of course your gaming group doesn't laugh, snort, and throw SR4A in the trash as a bucket of bad rules changes wrapped in a pretty new package.

[Dahrken]

Visigoth - the point being, if you choose to accept the increased damage, it comes at the cost of increased drain.

It is suggested to do so, but it is not the standard rule.

"As an optionnal rule, every net hit applied also increase the Drain DV of the spell by +1."

[harlokin]

It is suggested to do so, but it is not the standard rule.

"As an optional rule, every net hit applied also increase the Drain DV of the spell by +1."

Thanks for that, but where are you quoting from?

[Draco18s]

Thanks for that, but where are you quoting from?

It's in SR4A under Spellcasting somewhere, possibly under Direct Damage Spells.

[hahnsoo]

Listed in the SR4A Changes document here:
http://shadowrun4.com/resources/sr4a/sr4a_changes.pdf

"Direct combat spells have a new optional mechanic: for each Net Hit applied to damage, the Drain Value increases by +1. For Area of Effect spells, use only the highest Net Hits applied to damage."

Also:
http://www.shadowrun4.com/wordpress/2009/0...anges-document/
Listing the Changes Document as Anniversary Edition errata.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thanks for that, but where are you quoting from?

SR4A, Page 204, Left Column... 2nd Full Paragraph, Second to Last Sentence...

Keep the Faith

[RedeemerofOgar]

It is suggested to do so, but it is not the standard rule.

Yah, but the two go together. You use both, or neither, because if you aren't using the Hits = Drain, then you use as many hits as you can get.

[hahnsoo]

Yah, but the two go together. You use both, or neither, because if you aren't using the Hits = Drain, then you use as many hits as you can get.

Which is the way it was done in 4th edition and all previous editions of Shadowrun. You can use as many hits as you can get, without penalty. To comic effect, in some cases (Mana "Darts" that deal L damage but stages up to Deadly every time, for example).

You roll Magic + Spellcasting at a target. The target either has an Object Resistance threshold or rolls the appropriate resistance attribute. Net hits over threshold or the Opposed test deals Force of Spell in Damage + Net Hits in DV. Drain is based on Force (typically Force/2 +/- some numbers, rounding down). You get additional Drain equal to the net hits if and only if you are using the optional rule to pump drain based on the number of hits used.

It has always been Net Hits increased damage of the spell. Read "Damage Value" on page 204 for details. You can find arguments on this forum as to why the increased drain from the net hits is counterintuitive, but hey, whatever rules you want to use in your games.

"Damage Value: The base Damage Value for Combat spells is based on Force, which is chosen by the magician at the time of casting. Any net hits scored on the Spellcasting Test increase the DV by 1 per net hit. Each spell description notes whether damage is Stun (S) or Physical (P)."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yah, but the two go together. You use both, or neither, because if you aren't using the Hits = Drain, then you use as many hits as you can get.

Nothing wrong with that...

You choose the force of the spell based upon a reasonable estimate of the damage output in comparison to the drain... if I have enough dice to count on always obtaining 5 successes then I can cast a spell at Force 5 to reasonably expect a baseline of 10DV (more probably around DV7 after typical resistance) and resist less drain...

However, if you are like one of the players in our group... to obtain that same DV you would need to start at Force 9 for the same expectation (and even then, it would probably not affect the target because they usually resist the miniscule hits he generally obtains anyway)


I rambled a bit didn't I...

Never Mind

Keep the Faith

[Apathy]

It's also conceivable that the mage might choose to 'pull their punches' and deliver less damage than they're capable of. If I want to intimidate some mafia thug but not kill him I'd cast a stun spell. If I didn't have a stun spell I might cast a low force spell to just wound him. If I cast a force 1 mana bolt, but roll unexpectedly well and get 12 successes, I have to be able to withhold those successes or I'll end up in a war with the mafia boss for waxing his guy.

Granted it's a niche case...

[Draco18s]

If I cast a force 1 mana bolt, but roll unexpectedly well and get 12 successes

You're limited to 1 success on a F1 spell anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Apathy]

good point. Maybe there's no use for it, then.

[Tsuul]

Would changing the optional rule formula to add the net hits to the force of the spell before the rest of the drain formula make it more reasonable?
Take Mana Bolt with DV = (F / 2) with the optional rule of DV = (F / 2) + Net Hits that boost damage.
and change the optional rule to DV = ((F + Net Hits that boost damage) / 2)

Now there are no more rewards for overcasting.

[Draco18s]

Take Mana Bolt with DV = (F / 2)
and change it to DV = ((F + Net Hits that boost damage) / 2)

Assuming magic 7 (need an extreme example, I think)
Force 14 stunbolt + 0 hits-for-damage = 14DV
Force 7 stunbolt + 7 hits-for-damage = 14 DV

Force 14 stunbolt + 0 hits= (7-1) = 6P drain
Force 7 stunbolt + 7 hits = (7-1) = 6S drain (compared to 4S in SR4 and 11S in SR4A)

Hm...for the same damage you have the same drain, only P instead of S, so it pushes things back towards using standard casting, but overcasting isn't particularly penalized.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

good point. Maybe there's no use for it, then.

You can choose to cast a force 5 spell, and only apply 2 of the 5 net hits you achieved if that is all that you KNOW it will take to drop the opposition without actually killing them (via hacked acces to their biomonitor for instance, said information provided by your team's hacker) because you want to capture them but not overflow them into physical damage or death...

contrived maybe, but there you go...

Keep the Faith