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> Second hand gear - Oddities, Vehicles +4 / Second Hand Ware -1???
The Jopp
post Jan 18 2010, 10:55 AM
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So why is it that a used vehicle like a used bike have a +4 availability but second hand cybernetics and bioware have a -1 availability?

Are they THAT much better at recycling old abandoned vehicles than they are recycling and harvesting metahuman spare parts?

Let see:

Used Car: +4 Availability -20% Price (roughly)
Used Ware: -1 Availability -50% Price +20% Essence

Right, they need to "balance out" the essence cost.

The problem is that they dont "balance out" the vehicles worse stats, after all, it IS used and would have some of the following:
-Lower Stats
-Gremlins
-Chosen by GM

I find it odd that it is easier for me to find a second hand cybernetic arm than a second hand car...

Think about it today - how easy is it to get a used car today than it is to find a used prothstetic limb... - besides, a car in 2070 is cheaper than a cybernetic limb.
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Karoline
post Jan 18 2010, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 18 2010, 05:55 AM) *
Think about it today - how easy is it to get a used car today than it is to find a used prothstetic limb... - besides, a car in 2070 is cheaper than a cybernetic limb.


Well there's your problem.

Cyberware in 2072 is exceedingly common. The reason it is so easy to get secondhand cyberware is not just that it gets ripped out of people when they die, but also that it gets ripped out of them when they want to upgrade to a new model or replace it with something else entierly. Thus there are alot of people out there selling off their old cyberware and thus it is fairly available. There is also the representation of the time it takes to customize the ware to you. Even standard has some small amount of personal adjustment that needs to take place, and that will take a bit of extra time, represented by a slightly higher availability.

Now, cars on the other hand. First off note that it is only a 20% price reduction. That really isn't alot when you consider buying used cars. This means that it is a reasonably new model with likely very few miles on it (And thus shouldn't be loaded with high level gremlins like most people seem to think). So no, you aren't getting an old clunker, you're likely getting a 1-2 year old model with 10k miles or so on it. These aren't all that common, as SR seems like the kind of world where people don't buy a new car every year just to have the latest model. Instead it seems like the sort of world where people hold on to their car until it literally stops running.

Also keep in mind that car dealers don't really want to sell you a used car, they want to sell you the brand new one. They make more money off of it, so you are going to have to jump through more hoops to even be able to look at a used car over a new one.

So yeah, given that cyber is exceedingly common, that used cars seem like they would be uncommon, and that car dealers don't want to sell you a used car, I can totally see why one is easier to get and the other is harder to get than new models.
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The Jopp
post Jan 18 2010, 02:50 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 18 2010, 03:31 PM) *
Well there's your problem.

Now, cars on the other hand. First off note that it is only a 20% price reduction. That really isn't alot when you consider buying used cars. This means that it is a reasonably new model with likely very few miles on it (And thus shouldn't be loaded with high level gremlins like most people seem to think). So no, you aren't getting an old clunker, you're likely getting a 1-2 year old model with 10k miles or so on it. These aren't all that common.

Also keep in mind that car dealers don't really want to sell you a used car, they want to sell you the brand new one. They make more money off of it, so you are going to have to jump through more hoops to even be able to look at a used car over a new one.


These two sections are a pair of contradictions - either that or the car salesman profession is definitely dying.

First, the used car can be between 20-40%. Second, and this is the kicker:

1. People keep their cars until they fall apart
2. Car salesmen wants to sell you a NEW car
3. Vehicles are cheaper than cyberware

These things dont match.

USA today have a SHITLOAD of cars per citizen and I have a strong feeling that the autoindustry wont lie down and die in 60 years - and people wont change that fast in 60 years.

Not to mention that you suggest that people won't sell their old car until it falls apart, check your local motor magazine and see how many used cars you can find - and tell me that people in 60 years wont switch cars more often than their underpants when they get even cheaper - and sell the old one for a cheap buck.

And I dont think public transportation have brainwashed the population into abandoning the cars - or that used car salesmen have died out "welcomes to Trusty Bob's Autos, how may I help you..."

It is a bit too far fetched when you have a -1 to cyberware (even if it is as common as todays cellphones) and you have a car industry that is HUGE today and most likely wont SHRINK until tomorrow - a +4 availability to flip through a motormagazine webpage to buy a used car?
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KCKitsune
post Jan 18 2010, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 18 2010, 09:31 AM) *
Also keep in mind that car dealers don't really want to sell you a used car, they want to sell you the brand new one. They make more money off of it, so you are going to have to jump through more hoops to even be able to look at a used car over a new one.


Actually that's backwards:
  1. The price the dealership pays for the used car is much lower than a new car --> higher profit margin
  2. If you don't like the price of a new car at one dealership you can go to another dealership and try to get a better price
  3. Used cars are "unique", new cars are "clones"
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Karoline
post Jan 18 2010, 03:16 PM
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Okay, as for the cars: Keep in mind that most people don't own their own car, they rent it (As part of their lifestyle cost). Perhaps the unavailability of used cars is because they are already being snatched up by whatever company people are renting their cars from?

Or maybe corps take used cars, refurbish them a bit, and sell them as brand new cars again, thus making one that hasn't been refurbished already fairly rare.

And yes, I can see people backing off of pointless expenses like a new car every year in the sort of dyspepsia world that SR is (Or was). Wage slaves don't get paid alot and their car is likely provided by them by the company they work for (And likely won't get any sort of benefit by not using the 'free' rental). Are they really going to burn money on a car of their own? Or if they do are they really going to burn the money to replace it every year? A datajack on the other hand is actually useful, it (fluffwise) makes being in VR better, so maybe you work just that little bit more efficiently, or can go visit that porn node without anyone noticing that you're multitasking.

And things like sleep regulators are great because it gives you 4 more hours a day of free time, and when you work for most of the day, hours of free time are very precious. And things like cerebral boosters? That's almost certainly a fast track to a promotion.

So yeah, it may be a little more expensive to get a new cyberware than a new car, but if you can only get one or the other and you already have a car... why burn money on a new one when the cyber/bio is going to very directly enhance your life basically forever. The car will make life better for a few months while it is still the latest model, but only marginally so.

Endpoint is there are dozens of small reasons that all contribute to this effect, not all of which I know or have the time to explain. Also keep in mind that second hand ware can be recycled again and again and again, but a car will usually only be good for a while before no one is really going to care about it and it gets scrapped.
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Draco18s
post Jan 18 2010, 03:52 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 18 2010, 10:16 AM) *
Endpoint is there are dozens of small reasons that all contribute to this effect, not all of which I know or have the time to explain. Also keep in mind that second hand ware can be recycled again and again and again, but a car will usually only be good for a while before no one is really going to care about it and it gets scrapped.


Obviously they don't make cars like they used to. Ronda the Honda* broke 300,000 miles just last month, and that's after two accidents in which it was declared "totaled" (value of damage exceeded value of the car, which at 300k miles is about $1800, which is less than it costs to get a door panel replaced and painted). We sold it to a friend about two years ago (293,000 miles, IIRC).

*My sister named the car, IIRC. Its a 1993 Honda Accord in candy apple red maroon, I basically grew up in the backseat of it and it would have been my first car, if the clutch hadn't been tighter than a fat woman's corset strings. So it was my second car, after a beater automatic shift pickup.
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Karoline
post Jan 18 2010, 08:34 PM
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Yeah, it will still operate at that point, and so some people will hang onto it (more in the sort of world that SR is supposed to be) but you're going to be unlikely to sell it to anyone, and even if someone was interested in owning it, they'd likely want to pay you less than the hassle of getting a new vehicle is worth.

So yeah, cars can be used for ages, but it doesn't take long before no one is going to want to buy it from you.
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WalksWithWiFi
post Jan 18 2010, 09:12 PM
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I think the availability increase is to reflect that you are looking for a particular model of car, used,
instead of just walking to the local used car dealership and taking what you can find for cheap.
Though i honestly still think the availability increase is a little goofy, a lot of availability issues arise
on plenty of other items.
I won't go into some ridiculous dissertation on why i think in a future society used cars would be rare,
because i think that its kinda bs.
In play, a gm can easily waive the availability and adjust how he see's fit.
I can see how that the +4 availability could cause issues at chargen.
I would talk to your GM.
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Surukai
post Jan 21 2010, 12:35 PM
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It seem to be a lack of the kind of used cars that are cheap and easy to get in Shadowrun.

Look at craigs and you see tons and tons of cars and you can probably be very specific in model, brand and even location of a used car within minutes of searching....


Here in sweden I can find used cars that go for less than 10% of the original value that are located in the same town (< 15000 people) of almost any popular model that is 10+ years old and runs just fine for a year or so.
My last 3 cars have been those types that cost nearly nothing and runs for 1-3 years with just minor problems and they have been found after mere minutes of looking through Sweden's "Craig's list"...
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Jan 21 2010, 04:02 PM
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Actually, I see just one problem with second-hand cyber. It is better to use a second-hand alfa cyber than a brand new standard cyber.
You save 4% of essence for the same price (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
BUT, if the essence of a second-hand cyber was 25% higher, than a second-hand alfa cyber would be just like a brand new standard cyber.
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The Jopp
post Jan 22 2010, 01:51 PM
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To me, the most "wrong" thing about the -1 availability for used cyber is that you can get HIGHER availability gear that would normally be unnatainable at chargen at HALF the price - but slightly higher availability.

Muscle Toner 3 is at -1 availability...PER LEVEL.

So a rating 3 which is normally Availability 15 (5*3) is now 12...at +0,12 Essence (0,2/lvl = 0,6*1,2=0,72).
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Karoline
post Jan 22 2010, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 22 2010, 08:51 AM) *
To me, the most "wrong" thing about the -1 availability for used cyber is that you can get HIGHER availability gear that would normally be unnatainable at chargen at HALF the price - but slightly higher availability.

Muscle Toner 3 is at -1 availability...PER LEVEL.

So a rating 3 which is normally Availability 15 (5*3) is now 12...at +0,12 Essence (0,2/lvl = 0,6*1,2=0,72).


Wrong. It doesn't say that the -1 is per level. It simply says that it is a -1 to availability. The availability of Muscle Toner 3 is 15. Minus 1 is 14 which still keeps it out of chargen. I don't think there is a single piece of ware that is availability 13 or 21 and would thus be affected at all in chargen by the -1.
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The Jopp
post Jan 22 2010, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 22 2010, 02:57 PM) *
Wrong. It doesn't say that the -1 is per level. It simply says that it is a -1 to availability. The availability of Muscle Toner 3 is 15. Minus 1 is 14 which still keeps it out of chargen. I don't think there is a single piece of ware that is availability 13 or 21 and would thus be affected at all in chargen by the -1.


This is actually a matter of interpretation of the RAW and not a matter if I or You is "wrong".

*I* read it asa -1 to the availability of an item and in the case of Muscle Toner it is at 5/level. With a -1 to availability it becomes 4/Level.

With your interpretation it is at a total of -1 regardless of how many levels. The more levels the ware has the more our opinions of the RAW will differ.

Tracheal Filter with 6 levels would have a total availability difference of 5 since by your ruling it would have availability 17 and by my ruling it would be 12.

A clarification of this would be nice in a Errata.
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WalksWithWiFi
post Jan 22 2010, 03:25 PM
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I would actually interpret that as an availability of -1 to the flat cost, unless someone can point out where it says in bold print, per level.
I like to keep a lil balance at character gen, and really, thats the only time something having a high availability matters tons.
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Rystefn
post Jan 22 2010, 03:30 PM
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I read it as -1 to the total availability, personally. I could see where a person might make a case the other way, but I couldn't see us convincing our GM of it, even if the whole rest of the group said they read it that way.
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Blog
post Jan 22 2010, 03:48 PM
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Order of operations! Multiplication and division before addition and subtraction
Rating * 3 - 1 -> (Rating * 3) - 1
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WalksWithWiFi
post Jan 22 2010, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (Blog @ Jan 22 2010, 08:48 AM) *
Order of operations! Multiplication and division before addition and subtraction
Rating * 3 - 1 -> (Rating * 3) - 1

blech, math.
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Karoline
post Jan 22 2010, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 22 2010, 10:16 AM) *
This is actually a matter of interpretation of the RAW and not a matter if I or You is "wrong".

*I* read it asa -1 to the availability of an item and in the case of Muscle Toner it is at 5/level. With a -1 to availability it becomes 4/Level.

With your interpretation it is at a total of -1 regardless of how many levels. The more levels the ware has the more our opinions of the RAW will differ.

Tracheal Filter with 6 levels would have a total availability difference of 5 since by your ruling it would have availability 17 and by my ruling it would be 12.

A clarification of this would be nice in a Errata.


No, it is a mater of having to read it properly. It says quite clearly that you have a -1 to the availability of the 'ware in question.

The availability of Muscle Toner 3 is 15. 15-1=14. This is really simple basic math.

In all regards that you would ever use avalability, Muscle Toner 3 is 15. How you get to that 15 is immaterial, that is what it is. So anything that adjust avalability adjusts that 15, not the 5/level because the 5/level is simply a convenience so that the writers don't have to put: Muscle Toner 1 - avail 5 cost 8000 essence .2, Muscle Toner 2 - avail 10 cost 16000 essence .4, etc.

Think about it like this: When using the availability rules for searching for stuff, do you do your first few checks based on availability 5, then switch over to 10 and then switch over to 15? No, you just use the availability of 15 strait off the bat, because that is what the availability of muscle toner 3 is.

QUOTE
*I* read it asa -1 to the availability of an item and in the case of Muscle Toner it is at 5/level. With a -1 to availability it becomes 4/Level.

You are right, it is -1 to the availability of an item, but Muscle Toner's availability is either 5/10/15/20 based on what rating it is.
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Jan 22 2010, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jan 22 2010, 10:51 AM) *
To me, the most "wrong" thing about the -1 availability for used cyber is that you can get HIGHER availability gear that would normally be unnatainable at chargen at HALF the price - but slightly higher availability.

Muscle Toner 3 is at -1 availability...PER LEVEL.

So a rating 3 which is normally Availability 15 (5*3) is now 12...at +0,12 Essence (0,2/lvl = 0,6*1,2=0,72).


First of all, it is impossible to have a second-hand muscle toner. It is a bioware, not cyber.
Even then, when you make rolls to look for the item you make an extended roll for the whole total of the availability. If I'm looking for a rating 3 Muscle toner and I just got 12 success it doesn't mean I got a rating 2 Muscle Toner instead, it means I couldn't find what I wanted in the first place.
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Squinky
post Jan 22 2010, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jan 22 2010, 12:15 PM) *
First of all, it is impossible to have a second-hand muscle toner. It is a bioware, not cyber.
Even then, when you make rolls to look for the item you make an extended roll for the whole total of the availability. If I'm looking for a rating 3 Muscle toner and I just got 12 success it doesn't mean I got a rating 2 Muscle Toner instead, it means I couldn't find what I wanted in the first place.


There is actually second hand bioware now.
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Karoline
post Jan 22 2010, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (Squinky @ Jan 22 2010, 12:17 PM) *
There is actually second hand bioware now.


Yep, because nothing is as fun as having your flesh replaced with someone else's old flesh.
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Draco18s
post Jan 22 2010, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 22 2010, 12:38 PM) *
Yep, because nothing is as fun as having your flesh replaced with someone else's old flesh.


You almost made me burst out laughing in the middle of work.
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Squinky
post Jan 22 2010, 08:44 PM
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Heh, don't blame me for it.

It does sound nasty, but i guess acceptable to a person who can accept all the other "upgrades" they can do to their body in the shadowrun world.
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Karoline
post Jan 22 2010, 08:55 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 22 2010, 01:13 PM) *
You almost made me burst out laughing in the middle of work.


Glad to liven up your workday and let you add that hint of danger to browsing these forums while working (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

QUOTE
Heh, don't blame me for it.

It does sound nasty, but i guess acceptable to a person who can accept all the other "upgrades" they can do to their body in the shadowrun world.


Yeah, was being slightly sarcastic with my sarcasm. I figure in reality it isn't all that much more disturbing than replacing your flesh with flesh grown in a vat, metal, or metal that came out of someone else's body.

Even so, I'd imagine the market for secondhand bioware is smaller than secondhand cyberware, especially since the main advantage of bioware in the first place is that you're paying more for a lower essence cost. Somewhat defeated by getting second hand bioware, though there are serious exceptions.
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Squinky
post Jan 22 2010, 09:00 PM
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Type O quality and used bioware makes for a GM's nightmare at character creation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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