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> Weird discovery for me, And I may be wrong....
Squinky
post Jan 18 2010, 07:13 PM
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Hi all,

Recently I have been reading up on hacking, then I got all into Technomancers, you know how it goes.

But in my studies I read up on simsense much more than i ever did, i devoured unwired and loved it.

So, to get to the point. In the past I have always made characters with cyber-eyes, goggles, contact lenses, etc. Under the assumption that you need something to house an image link for viewing AR.

But, and I may be wrong about this, a character with a commlink and a simodule connected with a DNI can see AR, so i don't need those things do I?

This may be a major no brainer for most of you, or I may be totally wrong, but I wanted to verify this.

Thanks!
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jan 18 2010, 07:17 PM
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Sure - just that means you'll be open to simsense damage, too.
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hobgoblin
post Jan 18 2010, 07:28 PM
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if by DNI you mean trodes or a datajack, then sure.

but DNI is most often used as a expression for how say a cyberlimb connects to the brain.
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Sengir
post Jan 18 2010, 07:29 PM
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Yes, the DNI beams the images and all other input directly to the brain. These days even a datajack is no longer required, trode headbands are just as good.
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Method
post Jan 18 2010, 07:31 PM
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You are correct. If your commlink has a simodule and you are connected to it via DNI or a trode net, the simodule can emulate any of the 5 senses and it is fed directly into the somatosensory cortices of your brain. But as Rotbart has pointed out, you are then susceptible to simsense biofeedback.

If you have cybered replacements of your sensory organs they always include a [sense] link which allows you to experience AR via that sense without direct simsense input to your brain and thus the risk of biofeedback. The implant just adds the AR input into the biological sensory data before sending it on to the brain. But this requires the cyberware to have its wireless enabled, or be subscribed to your PAN, in which case AR data is received first by your comlink, then sent to your [eyes] (or whatever) to be integrated with the biological sensory data.
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Squinky
post Jan 18 2010, 11:34 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 18 2010, 03:17 PM) *
Sure - just that means you'll be open to simsense damage, too.


I don't have my books, so even in cold sim?

With that said, then it would probably be an umcommon thing to encounter?

Thanks!

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Jaid
post Jan 19 2010, 01:27 AM
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QUOTE (Squinky @ Jan 18 2010, 06:34 PM) *
I don't have my books, so even in cold sim?

With that said, then it would probably be an umcommon thing to encounter?

Thanks!


in cold sim, your condition monitor can still be overflowed (note that one of the black IC programs explicitly cannot overflow stun, but the other one just deals damage, period... no restrictions on overflow).

in general, it will be a rare thing to encounter. then again, getting shot it is probably pretty rare for most people, but may be just another day for a shadowrunner... so while it may be rare in general, it may or may not be rare for the specific case of a given character (if, for example, that character has a bad habit of mouthing off to vengeful hackers/technomancers/AIs...)
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Squinky
post Jan 19 2010, 02:12 AM
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Thanks for the reply. Since my guy has some hacking skills, I think i will keep his cyber-eyes then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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hobgoblin
post Jan 19 2010, 08:31 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Jan 19 2010, 02:27 AM) *
in cold sim, your condition monitor can still be overflowed (note that one of the black IC programs explicitly cannot overflow stun, but the other one just deals damage, period... no restrictions on overflow).

hmm, interesting case you present there, as i notice that while at first glance the black hammer description would seem to contradict this, it do not.

rather, black hammer states that when encountering someone using cold sim, it do stun damage, it says nothing about it behaving like blackout and stopping after the stun track have been filled. So unless someone can crack open SR4A and see if they cleared up this, it may well be that black hammer can overflow stun damage, and as such is deadly even in cold sim, just taking longer to get there...
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Xahn Borealis
post Jan 19 2010, 01:59 PM
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I believe there was some fluff in Unwired about how AR through your sim-feed was like seeing it in your mind's eye and a lot of people found it disconcerting. I always tend to have some sort of image link 'ware at all times.
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Garou
post Jan 19 2010, 05:03 PM
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i Thought you couldn't overflow black ice damage to stun because you get unconscious when the Boxes get completely filled up. And you get disconnected when you get unconscious, right? or not?
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hobgoblin
post Jan 19 2010, 05:37 PM
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nope, connection stays up.
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Draco18s
post Jan 19 2010, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jan 19 2010, 12:37 PM) *
nope, connection stays up.


Special property of black IC keeps you from being logged out.
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hobgoblin
post Jan 19 2010, 08:15 PM
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meaning the spider knows where to send the strike team, cruise missile, nuke or thor shot.
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Xahn Borealis
post Jan 19 2010, 10:25 PM
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Whats wrong with a basket of muffins? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Draco18s
post Jan 19 2010, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Jan 19 2010, 05:25 PM) *
Whats wrong with a basket of muffins? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)



WITH ANTHRAX? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Udoshi
post Jan 20 2010, 03:58 AM
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Also, consider the cost. Sim units are -dirt cheap- compared to even image links, and usually come bundled with commlinks. Amongst the casual user(read: non-runner), it would certainly explain the proliferation of AR and wireless in the sixth world.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 20 2010, 04:03 AM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 19 2010, 08:58 PM) *
Also, consider the cost. Sim units are -dirt cheap- compared to even image links, and usually come bundled with commlinks. Amongst the casual user(read: non-runner), it would certainly explain the proliferation of AR and wireless in the sixth world.


What?

Sim Modules are NOT included in Comlinks, they cost additional Nuyen to obtain

Sim Module costs 100 Nuyen
Image Link in a pair of optics (Glasses/Goggles/or Glasses) adds 25 Nuyen to the Optic Device Cost
Image Link in Cyber eyes is FREE, as it is included with the package at no cost...

So, in what world is a Sim Unit cheaper than an Image Link?

Just Sayin'

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Da9iel
post Jan 21 2010, 07:04 PM
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How much are AR gloves?
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Draco18s
post Jan 21 2010, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (Da9iel @ Jan 21 2010, 02:04 PM) *
How much are AR gloves?


Very cheat. Like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100
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Da9iel
post Jan 21 2010, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 19 2010, 10:03 PM) *
What?

Sim Modules are NOT included in Comlinks, they cost additional Nuyen to obtain

Sim Module costs 100 Nuyen
Image Link in a pair of optics (Glasses/Goggles/or Glasses) adds 25 Nuyen to the Optic Device Cost
Image Link in Cyber eyes is FREE, as it is included with the package at no cost...

So, in what world is a Sim Unit cheaper than an Image Link?

Just Sayin'

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QUOTE (Da9iel @ Jan 21 2010, 01:04 PM) *
How much are AR gloves?

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 21 2010, 01:12 PM) *
Very cheat. Like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100

Exactly.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 22 2010, 01:14 AM
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QUOTE (Da9iel @ Jan 21 2010, 04:15 PM) *
Exactly.


Again... Sim Modules are NOT CHEAPER than an Image Link...

And why exactly do you need AR Gloves for an Image Link?... Again, an Image link is much cheaper than a Sim Module and its various other requirements... Image Links do not require such things... they display an image in your field of vision... it is not even an AR interface...

What point are you actually trying to make here?

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Da9iel
post Jan 22 2010, 02:38 AM
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Gloves are the input device for non-DNI AR. You need those if you don't use DNI based AR. A Sim Module is cheaper than the sum of the gear you otherwise use for AR.

Am I being unclear?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 22 2010, 04:22 AM
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QUOTE (Da9iel @ Jan 21 2010, 07:38 PM) *
Gloves are the input device for non-DNI AR. You need those if you don't use DNI based AR. A Sim Module is cheaper than the sum of the gear you otherwise use for AR.

Am I being unclear?


Originally the comparison was against an Image Link, which is not AR... How did we get to AR Equipment?
See Quote:

QUOTE
Also, consider the cost. Sim units are -dirt cheap- compared to even image links, and usually come bundled with commlinks. Amongst the casual user(read: non-runner), it would certainly explain the proliferation of AR and wireless in the sixth world.


So I ask again... How is a Sim Module cheaper than an Image Link? And in what world are they bundled with Comliinks? This is just not the case.

Keep the Faith
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Da9iel
post Jan 22 2010, 04:52 AM
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I never said Sim Modules are cheaper than an image link, but I agree that they are dirt cheap. The original poster was just realizing that AR through DNI was easier than AR equipment. I posit that it is also cheaper even with free image and sound links if you include the gloves (which I view as necessary). True, I did generalize from merely viewing AR to actually working in it. If this offends, I apologize. The OP also mentioned getting "all into Technomancers." Image link is an unneeded expense for Technomancers.
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