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> Full-Auto Fire, or Why don't riggers rule the world?
ARCANE
post Jan 18 2010, 11:55 PM
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We are looking at starting up a new 4th Ed game and have run a little one off with pregens to explore the rules. The main issue we had was with Full auto fire. I have had a good look and have not found anyone else discussing this, so I thought I would bring it up.

The assumption we are working on (tell me if I am wrong) is that mounted weapons do not suffer from recoil. And even if they did, a gyromounted MG with a gas vent 3 would still be enough to give the same effect. The +9 DV seems to make full auto weapons scarier than Panther assualt cannons! I guess the one mitigating factor would be that you compare the base DV versus the armor to work out if it's stun or lethal?

Just to check my math on this - an assault rifle 7P -1 AP, with explosive rounds (+1DV) with fully compensated recoil is doing 17P! Unless you are shooting at people in security armor (not exactly common equipment) you should be levels of damage far in excess of that little assault cannon.

As a little aside the errata for shotguns seems a little odd - the Alpha's shotgun did not get it's AP fixed (an oversight I would assume), and I think the AP for other shotguns should have been fixed to follow the fletchette formula properly. So the standard shotguns (7P -1AP) should have the value of 9P(f) +4AV for fletchette. The Alpha should have the regular +5AP.

On the subject of the Alpha, where do the options go? Does the entire gun convert into the options listed, are they all underslung or some combo? My assumption would be the shotgun is underslung, but the gun converts into LMG or Sniper form. But what is up with the carbine? You can convert it into a less powerful version? You have an less powerful version underslung? Is it just to make it easier to hide in carbine form? Weird.

Thanks in advance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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hahnsoo
post Jan 19 2010, 12:16 AM
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The Ares Alpha has an underbarrel Grenade Launcher (it says so right in the description), and can't be converted into other weapons. Do you actually mean the HK XM30 package (which also has an underbarrel grenade launcher, in the description)? I think they mean the underbarrel Grenade Launcher can be converted into a Shotgun, while the base weapon can be converted into a carbine, Sniper Rifle, or LMG.

As far as full auto, yes it is deadly. But you are talking about hitting a single target with a 10 bullet narrow burst. They still get their normal dodge roll, which is no more easier/harder to dodge than a single shot. If you are using a wide burst to negate their dodge roll, you don't get the DV adjustment. Also, Autofire DV bonuses don't apply when hitting hardened armor (vehicles, spirits with immunity to normal weapons). Finally, the Panther XXL Cannon gets -5 AP on its normal hits, which is quite nice.

The real question is why does the PJSS Elephant Gun exist? A Sport Rifle, legal to carry with a permit, that can hit as hard as an Assault Cannon?

EDIT: The only reason I can see to make the HK XM30 into a Carbine is concealability. An Assault Rifle is a +6 Concealability, while a Carbine is +4 (as SMG). Not important to some folks, but there ya go. The fluff implies that you keep these modules in a suitcase or something similar, and you convert them in a non-combat situation. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to use the package, but you might have a character who is a gun nut who would have much glee over a gun that transforms into other guns. Most players who would play that kind of character, though, are also gun nuts and would rather have MORE guns over a gun that transforms into other guns. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Johnny Hammersti...
post Jan 19 2010, 12:48 AM
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I often wonder why people don't use Riggers more, or talk about how awesome they are.

vehicle+LMG+hardpoint=full auto awesome
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Kovu Muphasa
post Jan 19 2010, 01:01 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Jan 18 2010, 08:16 PM) *
The real question is why does the PJSS Elephant Gun exist? A Sport Rifle, legal to carry with a permit, that can hit as hard as an Assault Cannon?

For Hunting Graboids, Trolls and Light Armored Vehicles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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kanislatrans
post Jan 19 2010, 01:28 AM
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and because critters in the 6th world are scarier than they are now. If Im hunting Piasma, I want the biggest hardest hitting rifle I can get. Now for juggernauts, its best to move up to anti vehicle missles. kinda expensive to hunt(but they sure taste good coming off the barbeque!(grin)
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Karoline
post Jan 19 2010, 02:08 AM
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They don't rule the world because no one has realized how awesome they are yet, and so aren't appreciated properly. The other reason is walking around with an army of LMG toting drones will get you noticed.
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ARCANE
post Jan 19 2010, 02:21 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Jan 19 2010, 01:16 PM) *
The Ares Alpha has an underbarrel Grenade Launcher (it says so right in the description), and can't be converted into other weapons. Do you actually mean the HK XM30 package (which also has an underbarrel grenade launcher, in the description)? I think they mean the underbarrel Grenade Launcher can be converted into a Shotgun, while the base weapon can be converted into a carbine, Sniper Rifle, or LMG.

As far as full auto, yes it is deadly. But you are talking about hitting a single target with a 10 bullet narrow burst. They still get their normal dodge roll, which is no more easier/harder to dodge than a single shot. If you are using a wide burst to negate their dodge roll, you don't get the DV adjustment. Also, Autofire DV bonuses don't apply when hitting hardened armor (vehicles, spirits with immunity to normal weapons). Finally, the Panther XXL Cannon gets -5 AP on its normal hits, which is quite nice.

The real question is why does the PJSS Elephant Gun exist? A Sport Rifle, legal to carry with a permit, that can hit as hard as an Assault Cannon?

EDIT: The only reason I can see to make the HK XM30 into a Carbine is concealability. An Assault Rifle is a +6 Concealability, while a Carbine is +4 (as SMG). Not important to some folks, but there ya go. The fluff implies that you keep these modules in a suitcase or something similar, and you convert them in a non-combat situation. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to use the package, but you might have a character who is a gun nut who would have much glee over a gun that transforms into other guns. Most players who would play that kind of character, though, are also gun nuts and would rather have MORE guns over a gun that transforms into other guns. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)



Thank you, yes that was my bad, I should have checked I do get those two (Alpha and HK XM30) mixed up, dunno maybe I just like the name better? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ok so it is as we assumed, full auto wise. It seems a bit much for full auto weapons. A single shot weapon does have the option to take up to a -4 penalty to hit to increase the DV bringing the modified damage more in line, if not a bit harder to hit with.

We are considering doing something along the lines of (for narrow bursts, leaving wide bursts as is): Full auto narrow bursts are treated as 3 short narrow bursts. This allows for more damage to be done in one action than just taking 2 short bursts.

Basically what we are trying to avoid is the fact that an average sprawl ganger(body 3) in an armor vest(AV 6) being afraid of the drone with the Ingram Smartgun X loaded with explosive ammo, than he is of the same drone mounting an Assualt cannon. Math being he has equal chance of dodging both, so with a basic hit he can either look at soaking a 16P with 8 dice (taking 13-14 levels of damage) or a 11P with 4 dice (maybe 10 levels of damage, could even survive a hit the lucky dog, but unlikely. Even with an armor jacket he wont be looking pretty, 16S on 10 dice should still drop him, even if not lethally. That assault cannon would also be looking at less damage with a much better chance of leaving the ganger standing (just) and able to return fire (inaccurately).

Still I guess thats our beef, and it's good that we cleared it up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Squinky
post Jan 19 2010, 02:22 AM
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QUOTE (Johnny Hammersticks @ Jan 18 2010, 07:48 PM) *
I often wonder why people don't use Riggers more, or talk about how awesome they are.

vehicle+LMG+hardpoint=full auto awesome


In my group it went like this:

(Back in 3rd edition)
One player made a rigger, bought the essence heavy cyber and all
couple others made totally beefed up combat characters and were just dying for some action.

Combat starts, initiative is rolled, bunch of hover drones blow the hell out of everything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It kinda bummed us out, but those were earlier days, less real runs.

Nowadays my GM wouldn't let a rigger run around with all that firepower all the time.



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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 19 2010, 03:02 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 18 2010, 07:08 PM) *
They don't rule the world because no one has realized how awesome they are yet, and so aren't appreciated properly. The other reason is walking around with an army of LMG toting drones will get you noticed.



This is a very big reason... all that forepower is illegal to own/use by non-authorized personnel (generally Military or Corpsec)... hope you have good reasons to be mounting all of that illegal, non-licenseable hardware...

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Saint Sithney
post Jan 19 2010, 03:09 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Jan 18 2010, 04:16 PM) *
The real question is why does the PJSS Elephant Gun exist? A Sport Rifle, legal to carry with a permit, that can hit as hard as an Assault Cannon?


Why? I'll tell you why! (that's a completely legal weapon in 48 states, btw.)

As to why anyone would want an assault cannon when you can get the same kind of damage out of an assault rifle, well there's range for one, and there's Full Auto mods for second.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 19 2010, 03:12 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 18 2010, 08:09 PM) *
Why? I'll tell you why! (that's a completely legal weapon in the USA, btw.)

As to why anyone would want an assault cannon when you can get the same kind of damage out of an assault rifle, well there's range for one, and there's Full Auto mods for second.


Full Auto on an Assault Cannon... No Thank You...

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Squinky
post Jan 19 2010, 03:13 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 18 2010, 11:09 PM) *
Why? I'll tell you why! (that's a completely legal weapon in the USA, btw.)

As to why anyone would want an assault cannon when you can get the same kind of damage out of an assault rifle, well there's range for one, and there's Full Auto mods for second.


I know by RAW you can do it, but something in me stops me everytime I think of making a full auto assualt cannon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It just seems.....Cheesy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also, Assault cannon ammo is crazy expensive anyway.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 19 2010, 03:14 AM
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QUOTE (Squinky @ Jan 18 2010, 08:13 PM) *
I know by RAW you can do it, but something in me stops me everytime I think of making a full auto assualt cannon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It just seems.....Cheesy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also, Assault cannon ammo is crazy expensive anyway.



Assault Cannon Ammo... Way to expensive to shoot in FA Mode...

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Karoline
post Jan 19 2010, 03:19 AM
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Isn't there also something about the fire rate mod not being able to be used on weapons with 'unusual' ammo? While an assault cannon doesn't fire completely foreign ammo, the bullets it fires can hardly be described as 'usual'.
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Squinky
post Jan 19 2010, 03:22 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 18 2010, 11:19 PM) *
Isn't there also something about the fire rate mod not being able to be used on weapons with 'unusual' ammo? While an assault cannon doesn't fire completely foreign ammo, the bullets it fires can hardly be described as 'usual'.


Yeah, it does. But what is unusual ammo? Up to the GM I guess.

I don't want full auto grenade launchers ( I know, they make em) and other stuff in my games, its just gets to nuts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 19 2010, 03:25 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 18 2010, 08:19 PM) *
Isn't there also something about the fire rate mod not being able to be used on weapons with 'unusual' ammo? While an assault cannon doesn't fire completely foreign ammo, the bullets it fires can hardly be described as 'usual'.



Thias would be true depending upon your definition of Unusual Ammunition... I would not classify them as unusual, but rather very large...

They are what I would consider a standard round...

But I would still never mod a Panther Assault Cannon for such Use... If I wanted something like that, I would choose either a Vigilant Light Autocannon, or a More Discrete Stoner-Ares M107 HMG Conversion to Minigun...

Much more useful in my opinion if you are wanting a Fully Automatic Weapon with Ooomph... and they tend to strain credibility a lot less for me...

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HappyDaze
post Jan 19 2010, 03:46 AM
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QUOTE
I often wonder why people don't use Riggers more, or talk about how awesome they are.

Because the vehicle rules - especially the chase rules - are some of the worst-written shit in SR.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 19 2010, 03:48 AM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jan 18 2010, 08:46 PM) *
Because the vehicle rules - especially the chase rules - are some of the worst-written shit in SR.



I hear this all the Time, but have never experiencced the hangups that most portray about the system...

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wind_in_the_ston...
post Jan 19 2010, 03:53 AM
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QUOTE (ARCANE @ Jan 18 2010, 07:55 PM) *
The assumption we are working on (tell me if I am wrong) is that mounted weapons do not suffer from recoil. And even if they did, a gyromounted MG with a gas vent 3 would still be enough to give the same effect. The +9 DV seems to make full auto weapons scarier than Panther assault cannons! I guess the one mitigating factor would be that you compare the base DV versus the armor to work out if it's stun or lethal?


QUOTE (Arsenal, p105)
VEHICLE WEAPONS AND RECOIL
Theoretically, vehicle weapons mounted in a weapon mount
(p. 146) do not suffer negative recoil modifiers, but this can lead
to strange results when a very large gun is mounted on a very small
vehicle. For example it is possible to install a weapon mount with
an LMG onto a small drone with a body rating of 2 (cat-sized) and
suffering no recoil effects from full-auto fire, where a normal human
would have trouble holding the weapon let alone successfully hitting
anything. In instances like this, it is perfectly all right for the gamemaster
to apply negative modifiers equal to those a person shooting
the weapon would suffer from recoil, counting in the vehicle’s mass
(as a rule of thumb: its Body rating) as recoil compensation.


And no, to determine stun versus physical, you compare the modified DV of the attack to the modified armor value. That's base damage (not including burst fire) plus net hits, versus the armor rating with AP applied. Note that non-living things (vehicles) don't take stun damage, so if your modified DV doesn't exceed the modified armor value, there is no damage.
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wind_in_the_ston...
post Jan 19 2010, 03:56 AM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jan 18 2010, 11:46 PM) *
Because the vehicle rules - especially the chase rules - are some of the worst-written shit in SR.


1. Your group may ignore said vehicle rules, and still shoot shit up.

2. Or adapt some wargaming rules for your vehicles. Car Wars is always fun. I hear Air Cav has great rules for helicopter combat, if you can find it. Personally, I'm not a big fan of wargaming. Except Car Wars.
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Tanegar
post Jan 19 2010, 03:57 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 18 2010, 10:09 PM) *
Why? I'll tell you why! (that's a completely legal weapon in 48 states, btw.)

Holy fucking asscrackers! What are people hunting that they need a .95-cal rifle? Cthulhu? That's not a kill-it-in-one-shot gun, that's a kill-the-target-and-everything-behind-it-to-a-distance-of-two-miles gun.
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kanislatrans
post Jan 19 2010, 04:42 AM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jan 18 2010, 10:57 PM) *
Holy fucking asscrackers! What are people hunting that they need a .95-cal rifle? Cthulhu? That's not a kill-it-in-one-shot gun, that's a kill-the-target-and-everything-behind-it-to-a-distance-of-two-miles gun.


we grow some mighty big groundhogs here in Pennsylvania...(grin)
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Kovu Muphasa
post Jan 19 2010, 04:44 AM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jan 18 2010, 10:57 PM) *
Holy fucking asscrackers! What are people hunting that they need a .95-cal rifle? Cthulhu? That's not a kill-it-in-one-shot gun, that's a kill-the-target-and-everything-behind-it-to-a-distance-of-two-miles gun.

You want scary
Search Word: Beowulf Rifle
Its a .50 M-4 Carbine
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Draco18s
post Jan 19 2010, 02:01 PM
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QUOTE (kanislatrans @ Jan 18 2010, 11:42 PM) *
we grow some mighty big groundhogs here in Pennsylvania...(grin)


Some of them play the lottery!
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BlackHat
post Jan 19 2010, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (ARCANE @ Jan 18 2010, 06:55 PM) *
I guess the one mitigating factor would be that you compare the base DV versus the armor to work out if it's stun or lethal?


Just to check my interpretation of the rules, but don't you compare the modified DV (after net hits, full-auto, ammo-type, etc) to the armor? (SR4A pg 160?)
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