RL Armor Vests, How long do they last for? Options

[nezumi]

My wife and I were watching The International last night. After a combat scene, we got discussing... Assuming you're wearing a class II or III armored vest and you take several shots to the chest (but there are still bad guys around), at what point do you discard the vest? How many shots does a vest take before it becomes more of a penalty, I suppose in hindrance to movement, then an advantage?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Simple: You don't.

[Summerstorm]

Granted i don't know that much about ballistic vests and such... but i would discard the old one exactly a minute before i begin to wear my new one. I think even an old vest which lost a bit of its elasticity and strength and even is riddled with impacts and rips would still be better than not wearing one. So specialists... untrue?

[Aerospider]

It depends on whether the vest has been working or not.

Working - Don't bother taking it off, there are still bad guys around.
Not working - Don't bother taking it off, there are still bad guys around and you've been shot in the chest.

[Smokeskin]

Ever tried having a loose thread from your clothes snag on something, and it tears up your clothing? Now, if those threads are kevlar that can hold your forward momentum without breaking...

If you've been shot in the vest, use standard fire and movement, but check for loose threads before asking for covering fire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

Modern Armor can fall on a frag grenade and remain 90% effective.

Future armor should be better than that.

[Mikado]

Modern Armor can fall on a frag grenade and remain 90% effective.

Future armor should be better than that.

Although that is just the armor mind you.... The person inside would still suffer considerable damage. However, I believe that is irrelevant to the discussion.
If the armor is doing at least some good you leave it on, period. If you do get into a situation that you need to take it off and there are bad guys still around you are probably going to die anyway...

[Stry]

It depends. I have never seen the movie in question, but I do know some stuff about armor.

To explain the answer a bit better how ballistic vests work is by weaving a very tough fiber, like Kevlar, into sheets of fabric. One sheet of fabric will generally not stop a bullet, so the makers of ballistic vest will layer multiply sheets into a panel, generally 15 or more layers will go into a vest. The theory is a bullet may go though a couple of layers before it gets stopped. The panels are then placed in to a carrier, to help minimize the and tear or the protective panels. Depending on the threat level sometimes a trauma plate (generally made out of layering a combination or ceramics, plastics, and or metal) can also be inserted in to a carrier for additional protection.

Modern ballistic type vest that most police wear need to be replaced about every five years. Kevlar and other synthetic fibers breaks down in sunlight and sweat. There is some cutting edge real world genetech taking place now of taking genes of spiders that make spider silk and incorporating them into goats, so the goats can be "milked" for spider silk to make a natural fiber to be used in a variety of application including body armor. This would produce a lighter and more long lasting vest than what is currently around. Spider goats.

Older vests form the late 70's and early 80's were only good for one shot because the layers of Kevlar would get pulled out of place from the first hit, sense then the quilting technology has gotten better and can take more hits. Even though current vests can take a couple bullets and still be effective, vests will lose their effectiveness as more and more of the outer layers turn in to Swiss cheese.

Although not an ballistic vest issue, I would have to think walking around in a vest covered in bullet holes would draw some unwanted attention.

Edit Fixed broken link.

[StealthSigma]

Although that is just the armor mind you.... The person inside would still suffer considerable damage. However, I believe that is irrelevant to the discussion.
If the armor is doing at least some good you leave it on, period. If you do get into a situation that you need to take it off and there are bad guys still around you are probably going to die anyway...

Mind your that such vests typically only cover the torso, not the extremities. A fragmentation grenade would still affect the extremities, but your torso would be mostly intact. The scenario he described was a frag grenade COVERED by a kevlar vest. In such instances this is sufficient to block most shrapnel. However, rarely is a kevlar vest lying around and capable of being thrown on a live frag grenade prior to it's going off.

[Mikado]

Mind your that such vests typically only cover the torso, not the extremities. A fragmentation grenade would still affect the extremities, but your torso would be mostly intact. The scenario he described was a frag grenade COVERED by a kevlar vest. In such instances this is sufficient to block most shrapnel. However, rarely is a kevlar vest lying around and capable of being thrown on a live frag grenade prior to it's going off.

Although there would be minimal damage to the skin... I doubt the kinetic energy of a grenade going off with someone in a vest laying on top of it would be dissipated any significant amount by the vest to not result in severe damage to internal organs or bones in the torso of said person. That was what I was getting at with my statement.

[Draco18s]

Spider goats.

Your URL is not.

[Smokeskin]

Mind your that such vests typically only cover the torso, not the extremities. A fragmentation grenade would still affect the extremities, but your torso would be mostly intact. The scenario he described was a frag grenade COVERED by a kevlar vest. In such instances this is sufficient to block most shrapnel. However, rarely is a kevlar vest lying around and capable of being thrown on a live frag grenade prior to it's going off.

But.... but..... I saw a FutureWeapons episode where they placed this new really awesome Dragonskin armor on top of a frag grenade, and it held all the shrapnel, and that proved how awesome it was.

Now you're saying that any kevlar vest can do this?

You're saying that FutureWeapons is hype?

My world just shattered.

[Saint Sithney]

Yeah, a person in a vest would have their spine shattered at the least from jumping on a grenade. My point was, you could pick up that guy's vest, and still only have a small chance of bullet penetration.

[Randian Hero]

But.... but..... I saw a FutureWeapons episode where they placed this new really awesome Dragonskin armor on top of a frag grenade, and it held all the shrapnel, and that proved how awesome it was.

Now you're saying that any kevlar vest can do this?

You're saying that FutureWeapons is hype?

My world just shattered.

Those pinnacle vests have been subject to all sorts of controversy, hence their lack of major use against kevlar. Theoretically, dragonskin is superior, but those SOV-3000 vests have proven to show a number of defects in the field, namely improperly manufactured ceramic disks and a low tolerance to prolonged exposure to heat (such as the 120ºF ambient temperatures often found in Iraq). Most of those field tests are still classified, but one of the supervising engineers overseeing the tests basically said, "I'm under a gag order until the test results make it up the chain. I will, however, offer an enlightened and informed recommendation to anyone considering purchasing an SOV-3000 Dragon Skin—don't."

For my money, I'll take the Kevlar.

I first heard of BioSteel back when I was in a college biology course, about six or seven years ago. Transgenic goats win the cool war for armor. Another substance I had read about was reactive memory cells developed at MIT that hardened upon being struck by a bullet, but turned back to gel after a few minutes -- I'd like to see where they take that technology.

[Saint Sithney]

Those pinnacle vests have been subject to all sorts of controversy, hence their lack of major use against kevlar. Theoretically, dragonskin is superior, but those SOV-3000 vests have proven to show a number of defects in the field, namely improperly manufactured ceramic disks and a low tolerance to prolonged exposure to heat (such as the 120ºF ambient temperatures often found in Iraq). Most of those field tests are still classified, but one of the supervising engineers overseeing the tests basically said, "I'm under a gag order until the test results make it up the chain. I will, however, offer an enlightened and informed recommendation to anyone considering purchasing an SOV-3000 Dragon Skin—don't."

You really should post the whole quote.

"I was recently tasked by the army to conduct the test of the 30 Dragon Skin SOV-3000 level IV body armor purchased for T&E [tests and evaluation]," Masters wrote. "My day job is acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor. I'm under a gag order until the test results make it up the chain. I will, however, offer an enlightened and informed recommendation to anyone considering purchasing an SOV-3000 Dragon Skin—don't.

Interceptor Body Armor held the contracts they were looking to replace. Mercy me. That couldn't possibly be a conflict of interest...

[Randian Hero]

Interceptor Body Armor ended up getting those contracts. Mercy me. That couldn't possibly be a conflict of interest...

Naw, that would just be unethical. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ironically, the Interceptor vests performed just as crappily at Aberdeen if I remember correctly. Must be the fact that ammunition is just a helluva lot better than it used to be. Every time armor is improved one step, bullets are improved two.

[Method]

I used to work in the same MOLB department as one of the world's leading spider silk researchers. We heard a lot about it in various conferences and thesis/dissertation defenses. The big hurdle with using spider silk in armored vests is its elastic properties. Yes, it has phenomenal tensile strength (a strand the diameter of a pencil would sheer in half a 747 in flight without breaking), but it also deforms something like 200%. What that means is that, while a bullet may not penetrate a vest, it will push the vest through your chest just like a wound cavity. Thats the current direction of research- how you utilize that tensile strength, but use a weave of other materials to compensate for the elasticity. Any vest that results will likely be a hybrid of different materials.

As for when you discard an armored vest, I think most of the above are dead right (no pun intended)- in the heat of combat you never take of a vest that could be providing any amount of protection (unless you have a new one on hand and sufficient cover/cover fire to change it safely). But it should be pointed out that your average vest will *never* encounter a bullet, and any vest that does is instantly less effective than a new vest of the same type/quality. In that regard they are essentially "one use only" items. If you take a hit in a vest, you should replace that vest as soon as any imminent danger has past. If we were to apply reality to SR, your runners would be replacing their armor shortly after every time they soak damage from a firearm (which could be as often as every run for some groups).

[Fix-it]

I first heard of BioSteel back when I was in a college biology course, about six or seven years ago. Transgenic goats win the cool war for armor. Another substance I had read about was reactive memory cells developed at MIT that hardened upon being struck by a bullet, but turned back to gel after a few minutes -- I'd like to see where they take that technology.

they're called Dilatant, a kind of non-newtonian fluid. they are nowhere near ready for field testing yet.

to sum it up for the OP, you replace used armor once the battle is over. kevlar is cheaper than lives.

[Randian Hero]

they're called Dilatant, a kind of non-newtonian fluid. they are nowhere near ready for field testing yet.

After reading that, all I could think was: "The slow knife penetrates the shield."

[Draco18s]

After reading that, all I could think was: "The slow knife penetrates the shield."

Oh god, I actually know that reference.

[Saint Sithney]

Really, with the whole ceramic composite plate business going on today, you should be able to just slip in a new plate rather than scrap the whole vest.

As for the usefulness of high tensile/high elasticity fabrics, that sounds like it would be perfect for the pockets that said ceramic composites are fit into. So long as you can keep the ceramics from falling out, you're stopping small arms fire.

[Fix-it]

After reading that, all I could think was: "The slow knife penetrates the shield."

holtzmen fields are indeed non-Newtonian

Really, with the whole ceramic composite plate business going on today, you should be able to just slip in a new plate rather than scrap the whole vest.

As for the usefulness of high tensile/high elasticity fabrics, that sounds like it would be perfect for the pockets that said ceramic composites are fit into. So long as you can keep the ceramics from falling out, you're stopping small arms fire.

right, but the reason the kevlar is there is to protect the rest of you from shrapnel and spalling from the back side of your plates. if you're still in a warzone, sure you can swap out plates, but I'd still replace the kevlar when I got a chance. not to mention the fact that it degrades under UV.

[Warlordtheft]

Don't the ceramic plates shatter when struck by a bullet? I thought that was how they absorbed the impact.

[Ascalaphus]

I suppose in SR you can repair stuff with nanopaste handwavium. SR4 turned a bit more into Diamond Age than suits my taste.

[Omenowl]

You replace body armor as soon as it takes damage (ie 1 bullet). SR4 being abstract I would let the player replace the main piece of armor. The only exception would be the full military suits which could be repaired.

Dragonskin armor failed the test due to the ceramic plates not being held in place due to the temperature extremes as part of the requirements. There was a reason the owner said he wanted the armor tested right out of the box (ie did not have to endure the heat and cold requirements before being brought to the ballastics tests). Each of the rounds penetrated the dragonskin vest. I don't know if they fixed the bonding between the fabric and the plates since the test, but the owner also mislead the airforce that his armor had been certified Class III I believe. Dragonskin was also much heavier than the interceptor armor. Great armor under ideal conditions, but not ready for field use.