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> How does High Pain Threshold work?, Unsure
The Jake
post Jan 21 2010, 04:00 AM
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Hi all

I've read this quality numerous times and I'm not sure I understand the example.

As I understand it, you get to ignore a number of boxes of damage starting from when you accumulate penalties.

E.g. if I take High Pain Threshold (3) for 15BP at chargen, I ignore 3 boxes of damage starting at the 4th box of damage (where I would begin to accumulate -1 penalty).

Is this correct?

Also, if so, isn't this really lame - given the cost? Wouldn't a better fix be to reduce the penalty modifiers by 1 for each level of the quality taken? At least then for 15BP it would actually be worthwhile.

- J.
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Ranger
post Jan 21 2010, 04:51 AM
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You mean "High Pain Tolerance." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If you have High Pain Tolerance 3, then you suffer a -1 dice pool penalty once you've taken at least 6 Stun boxes or 6 Physical boxes. Beyond that, you suffer -2 at 9 boxes, -3 at 12 boxes, -4 at 15 boxes, and so on.

High Pain Tolerance therefore increases how many boxes you can take initially before you start suffering a penalty.
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hahnsoo
post Jan 21 2010, 04:56 AM
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In Shadowrun 4th edition, you subtract the value of your High Pain Tolerance from the boxes of damage you've taken before you determine wound modifiers. For a normal person, you get a -1 at 3 boxes, -2 at 6 boxes, -3 at 9 boxes, etc. For a person with HPT 1, you get a -1 at 4 boxes, -2 at 7 boxes, -3 at 10 boxes, etc. For a person with HPT 2, you get a -1 at 5 boxes, -2 at 8 boxes, -3 at 11 boxes, etc. Note that this is a change from earlier editions of Shadowrun.
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The Jake
post Jan 21 2010, 05:55 AM
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Thanks. I'm away from books atm but that clarifies it. You wrote a much better explanation.

Cheers,

- J.
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Saint Sithney
post Jan 21 2010, 07:16 AM
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Yeah, it explains it, but it doesn't excuse how much of a waste it is. I mean, for 15bp, you could buy 500 rating 6 stim patches and have 500 solid hours of level 6 high pain tolerance. And considering how easy it is to fix stun damage, 500 hours is more than the life expectancy of an injured shadowrunner by a large margin.
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The Jake
post Jan 21 2010, 11:22 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 21 2010, 07:16 AM) *
Yeah, it explains it, but it doesn't excuse how much of a waste it is. I mean, for 15bp, you could buy 500 rating 6 stim patches and have 500 solid hours of level 6 high pain tolerance. And considering how easy it is to fix stun damage, 500 hours is more than the life expectancy of an injured shadowrunner by a large margin.


I'd prefer to not have Addiction (Stim) thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

- J.
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Dragnar
post Jan 21 2010, 11:45 AM
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I houseruled it to reduce wound modifiers directly. That way it's at least kinda useful.
Under original rules, HPT is a bad choice even if you expect to be wounded all the time. It gets even worse, if you're healthy...
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Dakka Dakka
post Jan 21 2010, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 21 2010, 08:16 AM) *
Yeah, it explains it, but it doesn't excuse how much of a waste it is. I mean, for 15bp, you could buy 500 rating 6 stim patches and have 500 solid hours of level 6 high pain tolerance. And considering how easy it is to fix stun damage, 500 hours is more than the life expectancy of an injured shadowrunner by a large margin.
Um, Stim Patches only reduce the effects of Stun Damage. HPT works against both forms of damage, but it is incompatible with adept powers or 'ware that do similar things. It is compatible with Stim Patches.
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The Jake
post Jan 21 2010, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (Dragnar @ Jan 21 2010, 11:45 AM) *
I houseruled it to reduce wound modifiers directly. That way it's at least kinda useful.
Under original rules, HPT is a bad choice even if you expect to be wounded all the time. It gets even worse, if you're healthy...


I'd prefer to use Restricted Gear for the character I'm building (it would solve a lot of problems I'm having), but it suits flavorwise, so I'm sticking with it.

I might be able to get the GM to show leniency on it, but I cannot bank on that (I'm making a new character for a new group I will hopefully get to play in shortly).

- J.
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Aerospider
post Jan 21 2010, 12:35 PM
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The BP cost for this quality is undeniably too high. For the 5 point version you might never use it, and if you ever do you're saving a measly 1 die on tests for what is most likely going to be a very brief period.

I've not done extensive analysis on this idea, but how about making HPT more analagous with LPT? With LPT you incur penalties per two boxes of damage instead of three, so HPT(5) could increase it to four boxes and so on.

Damage...LPT...Normal...HPT(5)...HPT(10)...HPT(15)
0..............0.........0..........0............0.............0
1..............0.........0..........0............0.............0
2.............-1.........0..........0............0.............0
3.............-1........-1..........0............0.............0
4.............-2........-1.........-1............0.............0
5.............-2........-1.........-1...........-1.............0
6.............-3........-2.........-1...........-1............-1
7.............-3........-2.........-1...........-1............-1
8.............-4........-2.........-2...........-1............-1
9.............-4........-3.........-2...........-1............-1
10...........-5........-3.........-2...........-2............-1
11...........-5........-3.........-2...........-2............-1
12...........-6........-4.........-3...........-2............-2

Of course LPT is -10BP rather than -5, so the sequence isn't completely homogenous, but then the difference between LPT and normal would be experience more often than the difference between HPT(10) and HPT(15) so I think it's about the right balance.

Thoughts?
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Ophis
post Jan 21 2010, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE (Aerospider @ Jan 21 2010, 12:35 PM) *
The BP cost for this quality is undeniably too high. For the 5 point version you might never use it, and if you ever do you're saving a measly 1 die on tests for what is most likely going to be a very brief period.

I've not done extensive analysis on this idea, but how about making HPT more analagous with LPT? With LPT you incur penalties per two boxes of damage instead of three, so HPT(5) could increase it to four boxes and so on.

Of course LPT is -10BP rather than -5, so the sequence isn't completely homogenous, but then the difference between LPT and normal would be experience more often than the difference between HPT(10) and HPT(15) so I think it's about the right balance.

Thoughts?


Nice idea but it ruins my concept for a macho soldier - HPT 3 and Low Pain tolerance, he's hard as nails until it starts to hurt then he cries like a girl.

Me and my players love HPT that slight boost means not ahving to worry about getting knicked by small damage. Though this is at least in part a holdover from old editions were any wound meant negative mods.
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Dragnar
post Jan 21 2010, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (Ophis @ Jan 21 2010, 04:36 PM) *
Me and my players love HPT that slight boost means not ahving to worry about getting knicked by small damage. Though this is at least in part a holdover from old editions were any wound meant negative mods.

That's the crux, actually. Wound modifiers are so meaningless in SR4 that getting to ignore them isn't much of a boon. Even close to death, they reduce your average successes by just a single one for most people. In SR3, gettin a moderate wound took you out of the action completely, which was really bad, because it made the rest of the action boring for that player, but SR4 found the other extreme by putting people on video game health where you don't have to care until you drop.
My complete house rule to give meaning to it all is: Wound modifiers are per 2 boxes, not per 3 and HPT (as well as as the similar ware and adept power) lets you ignore wound modifiers instead of boxes (so it's still double as effective as RAW).
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Draco18s
post Jan 21 2010, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE (Ophis @ Jan 21 2010, 10:36 AM) *
Nice idea but it ruins my concept for a macho soldier - HPT 3 and Low Pain tolerance, he's hard as nails until it starts to hurt then he cries like a girl.


Personally I love the fact that you can have both and it doesn't even out.
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Ophis
post Jan 21 2010, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 21 2010, 04:51 PM) *
Personally I love the fact that you can have both and it doesn't even out.


Its what I enjoy

Doesn't hurt

Still doesn't Hurt

Nope no Pain

Fuck my hand

Mummy.

Ideally the character needs to get to about 5 boxes of damage and then start taking -1 per box that way he really goes to peices with bad wounds. I'm thinking something akin to Hudson from Aliens.
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The Jake
post Jan 21 2010, 07:20 PM
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I'm making a former British SAS troll fomori with Guts, Code of Conduct (Merc), HPT, amoungst other things. The character is always calm and made of iron. Giving him LPT is just silly and reduces his levels in badass.

- J.
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Saint Sithney
post Jan 22 2010, 12:17 AM
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How about a Permanent Infusion of Sideways with an addiction to Long Haul? Nothing more badass than a guy who can't feel pain and never sleeps except for when he passes out from exhaustion.
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The Jake
post Jan 22 2010, 12:51 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 22 2010, 01:17 AM) *
How about a Permanent Infusion of Sideways with an addiction to Long Haul? Nothing more badass than a guy who can't feel pain and never sleeps except for when he passes out from exhaustion.


I don't fancy my chances of getting a permanent Infusion without consequences. Besides, not sure you can do that off the bat at chargen and its much more badass to do it naturally.

- J.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 22 2010, 01:33 AM
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QUOTE (Dragnar @ Jan 21 2010, 09:32 AM) *
That's the crux, actually. Wound modifiers are so meaningless in SR4 that getting to ignore them isn't much of a boon. Even close to death, they reduce your average successes by just a single one for most people. In SR3, gettin a moderate wound took you out of the action completely, which was really bad, because it made the rest of the action boring for that player, but SR4 found the other extreme by putting people on video game health where you don't have to care until you drop.
My complete house rule to give meaning to it all is: Wound modifiers are per 2 boxes, not per 3 and HPT (as well as as the similar ware and adept power) lets you ignore wound modifiers instead of boxes (so it's still double as effective as RAW).



But really, you are ignoring the Wound Modifiers, and not the Boxes... it raises the threshold that the modifiers must exceed so that you can function longer... it essentially moves the modifiers up the scale so you suffer less for the equivalent damage that you would otherwise take. Normally 9 boxes of damage incurs a -3 DP Modifier... with just HPT of 1, your modifiers are reduced to 2, seems like a good buy to me... especially for a hardened combat veteran... is it expensive in character options... sure, so what...

Keep the Faith
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 22 2010, 01:35 AM
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QUOTE (Ophis @ Jan 21 2010, 10:57 AM) *
Its what I enjoy

Doesn't hurt

Still doesn't Hurt

Nope no Pain

Fuck my hand

Mummy.

Ideally the character needs to get to about 5 boxes of damage and then start taking -1 per box that way he really goes to peices with bad wounds. I'm thinking something akin to Hudson from Aliens.



Even though Hudson was short (4 more weeks and out)... he was one of the toughest in the end... kinda like Vasquez and even the sissy Lieutenant...

Keep the Faith
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Saint Sithney
post Jan 22 2010, 07:03 AM
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QUOTE (The Jake @ Jan 21 2010, 04:51 PM) *
I don't fancy my chances of getting a permanent Infusion without consequences. Besides, not sure you can do that off the bat at chargen and its much more badass to do it naturally.

- J.



Not only can you do it at chargen, you get 10BP out of the deal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
It's a classic build move for me when I want to make a cleaner to send at my players. Tack on a little Combat Monster, and you've got the perfect government killer.

I suppose if it's done in game then you can avoid the permanent addiction that comes with the Negative Quality.
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The Jake
post Jan 22 2010, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 22 2010, 07:03 AM) *
Not only can you do it at chargen, you get 10BP out of the deal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
It's a classic build move for me when I want to make a cleaner to send at my players. Tack on a little Combat Monster, and you've got the perfect government killer.

I suppose if it's done in game then you can avoid the permanent addiction that comes with the Negative Quality.


If you're referring to Mysterious Cyberware I thought the description read the GM chooses and the player doesn't know what it is (to the effect thereof).

I think I asked about that here many moons ago...

- J.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jan 22 2010, 05:00 PM
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What really makes HPT useless that it allows you to ignore Rating boxes.

Not rating Boxes on both Stun and Physical Monitor, like the Damage Compensators or Pain Resistance.
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