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> NANers, Has anyone ever actually played one?
spica2501
post Jan 22 2010, 04:00 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 21 2010, 08:15 PM) *
I think what most people forget when they go "NAN shouldn't exist." is that they have the magical equivalent of an entire arsenal of nukes in the form of the great ghost dance. It's a simple rule of modern engagement: You don't attack countries that can end the world (Or at least kill a couple billion people) when they want.

Sure the Great Ghost Dance was a big threat right after the awakening, but by 2070 the UCAS probably has a much higher awakened population than all the NANs put together. Heck, if the UCAS, CAS, California Free State, and Quebec teamed up they probably have more Awakened than the NANs have Native Americans.

More importantly, a great ghost dance takes time to organize. The first one worked because the NANs had time to prepare before they delivered their ultimatum. There is now way an act of ritual magic on that scale could be organized between "Nuclear Launch Detected" and Cheyenne, for example, no longer existing.

Besides, the threat of summoning up volcanoes isn't much use against people who already live in your own country. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot in a very major way. A volcanoes not going to do you much good when half the "Pinkskins" in Albuquerque have surrounded your government compound in Santa Fe with pitchforks and torches.
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kanislatrans
post Jan 22 2010, 04:29 AM
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ok, every time this subject comes up I write a scathing, inflammatory rant and then never post it because i don't care to bring real world crap into a role playing discussion. But I really need to state my view on this because its driving me nuts. So here goes and if I piss anyone off, well just ignore me and go on with the discussion as if I were never here.

Firstly, I have to agree that it is unlikely that the NAN would be as big as it is in shadowrun. However, why someone would dismiss the whole concept confuses me. I can't understand how the idea of a self governing native population is thought to be incredibly unlikely to some posters.

As an NDN, I find it somewhat insulting when someone basically says" Your culture hasn't the ability to take back what was stolen from you and build a somewhat better future." The arguments alway end up relying on population figures and other statistics to back up the basic premise, but the underlying theme is that we are incapable of functioning as one people. I find that sentiment condensending and somewhat racist.

Its been mentioned that conditions on the Rez in most places suck.I can't argue with that. after you have striped a people of all cultural identity and then denied them even the slight chance to of "fitting in " in your society, what the hell do you expect? 200 years of being kicked in the teeth every time you pick your head up out of the dirt does that to a people. Keep them drugged, spiritually empty, and poor and they are easier to control. Feed their young the messege that they are just lazy drunk injuns and don't have a chance in hell of becoming anything else and they start believing it. Add in a big helping of corruption assisted by your cultures greed and selfishness to make sure no positive progress takes root and you are good to go.

Now, just for shits and giggles. lets say that suddenly something happens. Say a spark of hope apears and catches on. A spark that the oppressor ignores because" it can't happen". Like a rain in the desert, things are going to soak it up and bloom like crazy. Its been proposed that magic is strengthened by the will. Give a dying man a chance at a cure and you will be amazed at the strength of will he can muster to get to it. Give a People a chance for freedom anid they can move mountains.(heh)

Another misconception is that NDN's aren't well armed. Omae, If the NDN's in SR are as well armed as us today, the UCAS army is in for a big suprise. We remember Wounded Knee. Ya ever wonder why there aren't a lot of Gun laws on the Rez? (and if they are why they are largely ignored?) I've seen ordinance that would make Blackwater ( or what ever they call themselves now) drool. Spirits aren't the only thing that can knock a chopper out of the air...(grin)

So,basicly. if you don't want to use NAN in your game. hey, thats your biz, Chummer. But please don't try to justify it by insinuating that "it couldn't happen in RL." Cause in RL, you may be suprised at what a bunch of savages may be able to accomplish in the future. All we need is a spark....



Walk in Beauty,
kanis


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WalksWithWiFi
post Jan 22 2010, 05:37 AM
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kudos to Kanis

to answer the original post,
yes, my main npc (named same as my tag on here)is a product of mixed parenting, his father being a native of the Salish Sidhe, mother being an
anglo elf.
I have had several native npc's through my several years of GM'ing SR, and i believe my brother has played a native character as well at some point.
Besides that, my gaming table represents all races/ethnic groups quite nicely in game.

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Megu
post Jan 22 2010, 05:38 AM
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I know this thread is a bit deja vu, but I thought I'd weight in to add that I've been running it much like otakusensei seems to be, working from the assumption of a racially/demographically mixed, but culturally assimilated/integrated and supportive NAN population. A great many citizens have few or very iffy blood ties to the relevant Native cultures, but nonetheless self-identify as part of the modern incarnations of those cultures. I realize that conflicts with some of the early canon, but I have some of the same logical issues with that canon that others in this thread who don't like the NAN are bringing up.

I do think it's a damn cool idea, but it's one that needs some thematic clarity in its execution. Regardless of the likelihood of any of it happening, if you assume it's just blood natives kicking everybody else out or ruling a conquered population, then that's as much a crime as anything's been, and I want the NAN to be an empowerment thing, and a point of hope, if you'll pardon the phrase, in an otherwise grim setting, a reminder that when the common man gets his shit together, the whole world shakes.

And I also want to simultaneously avoid the "Magical Indian" and "Noble Savage" stereotypes, and that's admittedly pretty hard. I've tried to do that by assuming that the bulk of the magicians trained in the early days were trained under Native tutelage and supported the rebellion, regardless of their own ethnicity; the shamanic elements are not restricted to blood natives. What history I've given out to my players (none of whom were previously terribly familiar with the canon version) has emphasized the mass Awakened elements of the revolution; for instance, a technomancer they crossed into Rapid City in Sioux country to extract was a black woman with Creek tribal affiliation named Michelle Stands-in-Clouds, and digging through her files during the legwork phase, I mentioned that the name originated with her Atlanta grandmother standing up to the tear gas in protests before the heavy fighting started.

I also tried to show the Sioux Nation on that run as still a modern place, even if it has sort of a New Old West feel. The NAN cultures aren't exactly the same as their pre-Indian Wars counterparts because a culture is a living thing, and you can't keep one pressed under glass and expect it to be healthy. They're not running around hunting buffaloes on horseback. There are for sure buffalos, but they're on ranches. The Cherokee that settled in the Rapid City area still are heavily involved in agriculture, but in 2070 it's vertical agriculture in a set of Shiawase-funded crop arcologies and the like. You get the idea.

I also don't want it to be Avatar, where it's still Whitey that has to save the day for the indigenous people, cause that's still a sort of superiority bullshit. I think this is maybe the hardest pitfall to avoid. I've tried my best to make clear that the Native Americans were still the core of the SAIM rebel movement, even if they didn't supply the mass of the boots on the ground. It's the names like Howling Coyote that get bandied around as founding fathers. I think this is maybe the hardest pitfall to avoid, because it's fairly subtle. But I'm trying.

My point is, I don't feel like we should abandon the idea simply because it wasn't executed well early on. It's got promise, I think. Whose game is this, anyways? I don't have to be married to fluff from when I was a preschooler. I'm honestly only really impressed with the fluff I've seen from Catalyst. In before edition wars... The point is, I think the idea of the NAN in the abstract is unique, interesting and valuable well beyond its use in isolating Seattle (we don't even run in Seattle, we run in Minneapolis).

As far as actual Native characters, we have one amongst the PCs I GM for, a full-blood Ojibwe dwarf mercenary named Jukebox from "up north", modern NW Ontario. I kind of tend to imagine her as an Ojibwe version of Revy from Black Lagoon, if that tells you anything about the character. She's easily the most Pink Mohawk character in the current campaign, and has kind of a "no one owns me" natural outlaw vibe. The player's a significant part Ojibwe herself, from northern Minnesota, so it's not entirely an alien culture for her, but she said she wanted to play something other than a "cookie-cutter Ojibwe", and I think she's definitely done that. Much of the drama comes from the fact that she has a sister in Minneapolis' Knight Errant, and Jukebox is definitely the black sheep of the family. Sometimes they help each other, but there's issues from being on the opposite sides of the law.

Interestingly, Jukebox hit it off right away with the NPC Zipper from "On the Run". So far Zipper's backstory I've got elucidated a bit more; grew up in a Cherokee farming arcology to a Japanese father and Cherokee mother in Rapid City. Having a dwarf kid didn't do wonders for the father's career, so he got blackballed, and their relationship was always...awkward. Her being a lesbian didn't make her fit in any better.(Hey, they said it in the module that she was, this isn't some wish fulfillment I'm pulling out of my ass. Hell, Jukebox's player's a straight woman) So a lot of her drama has been related to not getting along with them, as well as the fact that she's kind of spinning her wheels getting her life together. And Jukebox is always getting herself in deep shit, and Zipper worries about her.

Another major NPC from the NAN is a t-bird jammer from the northern border named Turtleł a Mohawk Warrior Societies guy. He looks less Indian, but has some in him. He's developed less as a character because the PC who has him as a contact never seems to show up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Anyways, I feel like the NAN characters that have showed up already have some depth to them beyond just being generic Indians.
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Critias
post Jan 22 2010, 06:17 AM
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I'm pretty sure there's still a NANner thread going fairly strong -- it shouldn't be but a page or two back, and last I checked it was at least a dozen pages long -- so the "Should the NAN exist?" sort of stuff might want to go there instead of here.

As far as actual characters go, I made a NAN Elf Rigger/Sammie for SR4, but never really got the chance to play him. He was an asshole, and the first snippet of fiction that jumped him into my head can be found here. He worked as a smuggler going into and out of NAN territory before getting pinched, and thrown onto an Urban Brawl team as part of his punishment (which is where the story kicks up).

EDIT: Here's the other thread. 24 pages, looks like, of plenty of "NAN shouldn't be" versus "NAN should too!" back and forth. Voila.
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kanislatrans
post Jan 22 2010, 06:38 AM
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more on topic...

Stonewall, Cascade ork. left Cascade Home guard cause he couldn't stand the corruption.(and left with with a Bison full of gear) not quite as honorable as he thought himself to be. bad case of ethics caused him to double cross the Triads in HK. last seen trying to make it to Austrailia. Assumed to be KIA

Two-Feathers, pink-skin tribal, washed out of Wildcats training on day 3 due to drug issues, KIA in amzonia by big snake.

Grinner, Navajo dwarf, Coyote shaman, killed by yaks while hitting a brothel. tried to do the melee specialiists job, was Idea man for "the great big hammer "con which resulted in the cult following of the band"Big Hammer" .

@Critias: sorry for the derail. Considered posting in the other threads, but they caught fire before I could post and I figured anything I said would be lost in smoke and flames.(grin)
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LurkerOutThere
post Jan 22 2010, 08:39 AM
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QUOTE (kanislatrans @ Jan 21 2010, 10:29 PM) *
Firstly, I have to agree that it is unlikely that the NAN would be as big as it is in shadowrun. However, why someone would dismiss the whole concept confuses me. I can't understand how the idea of a self governing native population is thought to be incredibly unlikely to some posters.


As i said elsewhere for me the complaint has usually been one of scale more then anything that and tactics, but that's neither here nor there.

QUOTE
As an NDN, I find it somewhat insulting when someone basically says" Your culture hasn't the ability to take back what was stolen from you and build a somewhat better future." The arguments alway end up relying on population figures and other statistics to back up the basic premise, but the underlying theme is that we are incapable of functioning as one people. I find that sentiment condensending and somewhat racist.

You can think their racist all you want however the "one people" you suggest has never existed. Even before the coming of europeans to North America the Native American's wern't united one people living in peace and harmony with the land but a set of seperate and independant tribes (some more then others, there are more similarities amongst those classified as "Sioux" then most other places) who in some cases really didn't get along. If anything these differences were as pronounced if not more so then the differences between their european counterparts. So yes, acting like every single NAN in North America got on fine with everyone else enough that less then a percentage point of the population kicked the crap out of the 99% percent is patently rediculous.

QUOTE
Its been mentioned that conditions on the Rez in most places suck.I can't argue with that. after you have striped a people of all cultural identity and then denied them even the slight chance to of "fitting in " in your society, what the hell do you expect? 200 years of being kicked in the teeth every time you pick your head up out of the dirt does that to a people. Keep them drugged, spiritually empty, and poor and they are easier to control. Feed their young the messege that they are just lazy drunk injuns and don't have a chance in hell of becoming anything else and they start believing it. Add in a big helping of corruption assisted by your cultures greed and selfishness to make sure no positive progress takes root and you are good to go.

Yes because what's totally keeping the NAn down is completely the whiteman's corruption and entirely his evil. After all everyone knows that there has never been a lazy or corrupt member of the people. If such things exist it's clearly THE MAN'S fault. I wonder if some day we'll reach a point where we'll be a sufficiently intermixed planet where someone can't play the racial opression card, probly not but it's a nice thought. We'll either never reach that point, or we'll just find a new card.

QUOTE
Now, just for shits and giggles. lets say that suddenly something happens. Say a spark of hope apears and catches on. A spark that the oppressor ignores because" it can't happen". Like a rain in the desert, things are going to soak it up and bloom like crazy. Its been proposed that magic is strengthened by the will. Give a dying man a chance at a cure and you will be amazed at the strength of will he can muster to get to it. Give a People a chance for freedom anid they can move mountains.(heh)

Yep because magic totally works better if the people are dispirited and broken waiting for that pure magic to come back and fill their lives. Magic in shadowrun is driven by will PERIOD. It doesn't matter if that will is focused through the Ghost Dance, Christian Dogma, Jewish Kaballah, or belief in Elvis the undying. You either have the spark or you don't.


QUOTE
Another misconception is that NDN's aren't well armed. Omae, If the NDN's in SR are as well armed as us today, the UCAS army is in for a big suprise. We remember Wounded Knee. Ya ever wonder why there aren't a lot of Gun laws on the Rez? (and if they are why they are largely ignored?) I've seen ordinance that would make Blackwater ( or what ever they call themselves now) drool. Spirits aren't the only thing that can knock a chopper out of the air...(grin)

Yea hillbillies are well armed everywhere regardless of skin color, your point? The branch dividians had some rediculous firepower by legal/civilian standards it didn't do them a whole hell of a lot of good against some of the cast off military hardware the ATF packs.

QUOTE
So,basicly. if you don't want to use NAN in your game. hey, thats your biz, Chummer. But please don't try to justify it by insinuating that "it couldn't happen in RL." Cause in RL, you may be suprised at what a bunch of savages may be able to accomplish in the future. All we need is a spark....



......all i'm going to basically respond to this is everyone justifies their bull somehow whether it's the south will rise again morons, the neo-nazi freaks or anyone else with a cause and an axe to grind. It's only frightening when the "justification" is sufficient that what would basically be a racist screed if it was delivered by the aryan brotherhood is "kudos to kanis" because it's been delivered by a wronged party. I mean for example, lets say tommorow the NAN did get established, shouldn't they be able to buy and sell blacks, women, and members of conquered tribes as property? Because that was totally part of their culture you know.

So yea while Kanis obviously very heavily draws on his own personal experiences and beliefs some of which are drawn from his heritage I'm going to point out if your a Ponca or Omaha Indian who got run roughshod over by both the Fed's and other natives that whole united front thing starts to break down.
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WalksWithWiFi
post Jan 22 2010, 04:22 PM
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lol

kudos to Lurker,

mostly because he cites my kudos.

The kudos was placed there because he spoke his mind, much like you did lurker,
not that i 100% agree with what he/she typed.

maybe someday, in this magical utopia where all races are treated equally, a person
can also give kudos without someone passing judgment upon them
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

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Rystefn
post Jan 22 2010, 04:50 PM
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I've seen tons, and played a few myself, including my first even SR character, Sliver (a.k.a. Daniel Running Water). In my experiene, all you have to do is pass around the old "Never Deal With a Dragon" novel, and the next round of character creation will overflow with NAN street sammies.
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kanislatrans
post Jan 22 2010, 05:40 PM
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and i also will give kudos to Lurker. I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinions. that way leads to fanaticism.(boy, am I throwing the -isms around or what?)

However, I must say that I didn't call anyone a racist. I said the underlying sentiment was"condescending and somewhat racist."
but again that is all off topic. I would welcome any discussion of the subject in pm or email though as it is a facet of SR that I enjoy( and probably one of the original "wow, This game rocks!!" things that have kept me playing through the years.)
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otakusensei
post Jan 22 2010, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE (kanislatrans @ Jan 22 2010, 12:40 PM) *
...and probably one of the original "wow, This game rocks!!" things that have kept me playing through the years...



Exactly. I know there are plenty of folks that look at the mention of the NAN and mentally roll right over it. But it's one of those features that pops back up from time to time as something really unique and interesting about the setting. I'm glad it's there and see the NANs as a relatively positive force in the sixth world. Positioned between the old guard nations, their culture of corruption and tradition of misconduct, and the mega-corporations with their ruthless power and global influence there is a burning fire carried in embers from an old source.

That's a romantic view. Up close it's humanity, and humanity is ugly. But it's as good as anything when you need something to believe in. And you've got to believe in something.
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Karoline
post Jan 22 2010, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (spica2501 @ Jan 21 2010, 11:00 PM) *
Sure the Great Ghost Dance was a big threat right after the awakening, but by 2070 the UCAS probably has a much higher awakened population than all the NANs put together. Heck, if the UCAS, CAS, California Free State, and Quebec teamed up they probably have more Awakened than the NANs have Native Americans.

More importantly, a great ghost dance takes time to organize. The first one worked because the NANs had time to prepare before they delivered their ultimatum. There is now way an act of ritual magic on that scale could be organized between "Nuclear Launch Detected" and Cheyenne, for example, no longer existing.

Besides, the threat of summoning up volcanoes isn't much use against people who already live in your own country. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot in a very major way. A volcanoes not going to do you much good when half the "Pinkskins" in Albuquerque have surrounded your government compound in Santa Fe with pitchforks and torches.


That's true. The great ghost dance maybe isn't the greatest deterant for future fights, but unless whatever country is taking on NAN can do so very quickly, NAN would potentially be able to get together the people needed for the dance. And even if they can't, the fact is that NAN is a nation now, and attacking another nation is always a bad idea. Global PR is going to drop like a stone, and while Country A is taking on NAN, Country B might decide to swoop in while A is weakened.

All in all, once NAN exists, it is likely to stay in existence.
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Rystefn
post Jan 23 2010, 12:35 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 22 2010, 10:40 PM) *
All in all, once NAN exists, it is likely to stay in existence.


QFT

Nations, as a rule, tend to be fairly long-lived entities. Doubly so if they have large swaths of land, plenty of useful resources, and technology (and magic in SR) that isn't woefully lagging behind the global standard. Keep in mind, the NAN don't just have magic very early in game, they also have access to top-notch military tech as well. Sure, they wrecked up a lot of military bases in the uprising, but not everything was destroyed, and most of the infrastructure of the old US remains intact. A week after they take over, they can start rolling out tanks, helos, and fighter jets of their own.
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LivingOxymoron
post Jan 25 2010, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (spica2501 @ Jan 21 2010, 08:00 PM) *
Sure the Great Ghost Dance was a big threat right after the awakening, but by 2070 the UCAS probably has a much higher awakened population than all the NANs put together. Heck, if the UCAS, CAS, California Free State, and Quebec teamed up they probably have more Awakened than the NANs have Native Americans.

More importantly, a great ghost dance takes time to organize. The first one worked because the NANs had time to prepare before they delivered their ultimatum. There is now way an act of ritual magic on that scale could be organized between "Nuclear Launch Detected" and Cheyenne, for example, no longer existing.

Besides, the threat of summoning up volcanoes isn't much use against people who already live in your own country. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot in a very major way. A volcanoes not going to do you much good when half the "Pinkskins" in Albuquerque have surrounded your government compound in Santa Fe with pitchforks and torches.


The remaining NAN nations have a strategic advantage against the 3 Anglo and 1 French nation you mentioned: they get along better.

The PCC is an economic and technological powerhouse easily on par with (or exceeding) the UCAS. Not to mention the fact that they have cordial relations with the CAS over their shared enemy of Aztlan.

The Sioux is a militarized nation, much like Israel, with mandatory conscription of all citizens, coupled with high degrees of training and nationalist-derived morale.

The SSC form supply lines to and from both, and have a strategic advantage in being able to hold Seattle hostage (or cause it to declare independence).

Now, I have no doubt that the UCAS military is probably the single most powerful military force in North America, capable of besting any other single nation on the continent in open war... but it doesn't seem like they have the mutual defense pacts in place that the NAN states have. Given the already demonstrated mutual defense pacts, an outside war against one is a war against all... and I don't think that the UCAS has any cause to want to commit to a long, bloody war like that.

On the other hand, there is a growing possibility that the NAN states in North American might break from within. Pueblo might be stretching itself WAY too thin by swallowing up Ute and SoCal (and making a deal with the Horizon Devil in the process), and the SSC owes Sioux big time for its help in dealing with Tsimshian.
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LivingOxymoron
post Jan 25 2010, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE (Rystefn @ Jan 22 2010, 04:35 PM) *
QFT

Nations, as a rule, tend to be fairly long-lived entities. Doubly so if they have large swaths of land, plenty of useful resources, and technology (and magic in SR) that isn't woefully lagging behind the global standard. Keep in mind, the NAN don't just have magic very early in game, they also have access to top-notch military tech as well. Sure, they wrecked up a lot of military bases in the uprising, but not everything was destroyed, and most of the infrastructure of the old US remains intact. A week after they take over, they can start rolling out tanks, helos, and fighter jets of their own.


Don't forget that the Pueblo Corporate Council is often pointed to as a tech powerhouse on par with Japan, and a military whose equipment is probably more SOTA than the UCAS military.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 25 2010, 09:45 PM
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Did not the Silicone Valleys fall to them?
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LivingOxymoron
post Jan 25 2010, 11:52 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 25 2010, 01:45 PM) *
Did not the Silicone Valleys fall to them?


Nope, Pueblo only seized LA along the coast. My understanding is that Ares mostly controls the Silicon Valley.
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