Ghouls - Which rules apply?, Developer clarification appreciated Options

[Dakka Dakka]

To me there is some confusion as to how Ghouls(PCs or Critters) resolve Combat against Astral opponents.
According to p. 193 of SR4A "Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters use their Physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities" This should include ghouls or at least the PC variant since they are dual-natured characters.

There is however a different rule for Dual-Natured beings with a Natural Weapon (which includes both types of ghouls): "If the critter is dual natured, Natural Weapon may be used with the normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value to perform attacks against astral opponents (within reach)."

So which is it? Are only PC-Ghouls particularly screwed?

As a side note, what about the Natural Weapon itself? It seems to have some kind of mystical property so does it pierce Immunity to Normal Weapons? how about the absolutely mundane clawe and teeth of a dog? They are also considered Natural Weapons so can a dog easily chew through spirits?

[Thanee]

I think these rules also apply to ghouls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

To me there is some confusion as to how Ghouls(PCs or Critters) resolve Combat against Astral opponents.
According to p. 193 of SR4A "Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters use their Physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities" This should include ghouls or at least the PC variant since they are dual-natured characters.

There is however a different rule for Dual-Natured beings with a Natural Weapon (which includes both types of ghouls): "If the critter is dual natured, Natural Weapon may be used with the normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value to perform attacks against astral opponents (within reach)."

So which is it? Are only PC-Ghouls particularly screwed?

Hmm... If the second one works for NPC Ghouls I would most certainly use the same rules for PC Ghouls as well, under the assumption that specific rules (in this case dual-natured + natural weapon) trump more generic rules.

As a side note, what about the Natural Weapon itself? It seems to have some kind of mystical property so does it pierce Immunity to Normal Weapons? how about the absolutely mundane clawe and teeth of a dog? They are also considered Natural Weapons so can a dog easily chew through spirits?

Very unlikely, if you ask me. It has to be magical in nature.

Bye
Thanee

[Dakka Dakka]

I think these rules also apply to ghouls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Funny, but not very helpful.

Very unlikely, if you ask me. It has to be magical in nature.

That's what I'd say as well for the dogs, but it is not so clear with dual-natured beings which are by definition magical in nature. The Aforementioned rule about Natural weapons in dual-antured beings suggests as well that this attack has some kind of magical property. A ghoul with implanted hand razors would not be able to use them against spirits.

[Thanee]

That's what I'd say as well for the dogs, but it is not so clear with dual-natured beings which are by definition magical in nature. The Aforementioned rule about Natural weapons in dual-antured beings suggests as well that this attack has some kind of magical property.

Well, if you attack spirits on the astral, they do not have immunity to normal weapons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If you attack them on the physical... you better have a rule to quote, that the attacks are magical.

That's my stance on it at least.

Bye
Thanee

[Dahrken]

To me there is some confusion as to how Ghouls(PCs or Critters) resolve Combat against Astral opponents.
According to p. 193 of SR4A "Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters use their Physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities" This should include ghouls or at least the PC variant since they are dual-natured characters.

There is however a different rule for Dual-Natured beings with a Natural Weapon (which includes both types of ghouls): "If the critter is dual natured, Natural Weapon may be used with the normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value to perform attacks against astral opponents (within reach)."

So which is it? Are only PC-Ghouls particularly screwed?

I'd say a ghoul (PC or not) can choose to use one method or the other according to his preference (and stats/skills).

As a side note, what about the Natural Weapon itself? It seems to have some kind of mystical property so does it pierce Immunity to Normal Weapons? how about the absolutely mundane clawe and teeth of a dog? They are also considered Natural Weapons so can a dog easily chew through spirits?

No. The claw and teeth of a normal dog don't have "mystical properties", and don't pierce Immunity to Normal weapon, even if the dog is an Awakened, dual-natured variant. Immunity to Normal Weapons is for physical or dual-natured entities, while the rule allow to attack a purely astral entity (which doesn't benefit from said Immunity but could use Astral Armor).

[WalksWithWiFi]

They are dual natured, therefore, much like drake pc's, they can roll a normal attack roll to effect spirits, manifested or not, as long as its within reach.
And here is a quote from the runners companion,
"As dual natured beings in dracoform, characters can use their
Physical attributes and Unarmed Combat skills in conjunction with
their Natural Weapon attacks on both the astral and physical planes."

citing the drake, that is why i would make my decision on ghouls being able to do the same.

[Jaid]

strictly speaking, natural weapon is a critter power. critter powers bypass immunity to normal weapons (i kid you not; see SR4A page 295 for the rules on it). as such, *technically* a dog or other animal with the natural weapon critter power can indeed bypass immunity to normal weapons. doubtless this fact will at some point result in new SOTA anti-spirit weaponry being designed at some point in the future.

[Karoline]

Doesn't seem very confusing to me. Dual natured can either use astral combat + willpower or if they have a natural weapon they can use Unarmed + agility against astral entities.