Natural Weapons on critters, Who put soft pillows on dragon claws? Options

[Surukai]

Do strength/2 apply to the DV of natural weapons for critters? It seems not for most critters. They seem to already be somewhere around str/2+1 (Dog), str/2+2 (great cat, wolf, ...) or str/2 (Vampire) so it "matches" or is somewhat similar to cyber/bio implant weapons or regular wielded ones.

Natural weapon power says critters without natural weapons may still be able to deal str/2 S like normal people.

But, glancing at dracoforms I noticed that dragons have DV 10 even though most variants of "regular" dragons have strength exceeding 30 and that they would punch for 15+ S. What happened to the dragons' claws that made them into a str/2-5 to str/2-8 for western dragon (strength 35)?

If a dragon, even at mere non-greater dragon size, hits something I can't see how a regular dude wearing formfit + camo suit, helmet and decent body can take a hit without even getting knocked down. (Even with ap -2, you'd roll 13-20 dice to soak up most damage from an attack coming from a creature several times your weight and strength).

It's not that important I suppose, you're more likely to get mob mind on your party and shoot yourself in the head if you try to fight it, given that you even meet one but it still seemed a bit inconsistent to me (unless of course you add the str/2 but then critter claws are way more poweful than cybered ones or even wielded weapons) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rystefn]

We noticed this as well. It became a running gag in our group, actually. The mental image of a dragon with two-foot claws being much scarier when it pulls out a six-inch knife was the source of much humor. There's something endlessly funny to me about the idea of a shiv-dragon.

[Surukai]

Haha, I didn't even think about that. I guess their claws aren't good at wielding a weapon though but let's not ruin the fun. ^^

[Rystefn]

...or stat one out as an adept instead of a magician. Give him Killing hands and watch the fun...

Information broker: Watch out for this one. He likes to tussle up close.
Runners: Yeah, thanks for the tip. Dragon claws scare the crap outta me...
IB: No, don't worry about the claws. As long as he's using claws, it's all fun and games. If he balls up his fist, then he's serious...
Runners: WTF?

[Draco18s]

...or stat one out as an adept instead of a magician. Give him Killing hands and watch the fun...

Information broker: Watch out for this one. He likes to tussle up close.
Runners: Yeah, thanks for the tip. Dragon claws scare the crap outta me...
IB: No, don't worry about the claws. As long as he's using claws, it's all fun and games. If he balls up his fist, then he's serious...
Runners: WTF?

Hehehe.

[lordnth]

...or stat one out as an adept instead of a magician. Give him Killing hands and watch the fun...

Information broker: Watch out for this one. He likes to tussle up close.
Runners: Yeah, thanks for the tip. Dragon claws scare the crap outta me...
IB: No, don't worry about the claws. As long as he's using claws, it's all fun and games. If he balls up his fist, then he's serious...
Runners: WTF?

So funny. Made my day soo much brighter!!

[Neraph]

I always liked reading the part about dragons being accomplished mages and having most spells known. Take an Element Aura flavoured to your liking, and tail-whipping or wing-buffetting people.

[Draco18s]

wing-buffetting

While it looks really cool, I do doubt the plausibility of it being a seriously damaging attack (D&D has this at an extreme where it does nearly the same damage as a claw swipe!). The bones won't be strong enough to stand up to that kind of abuse (relative to the claw digits). Distraction, sure (or in the case of Elemental Aura: some good burny-burn too).

Of course, we do have to consider that they're flying somehow without snapping the bones (magic, dur), as any dragon over about 15 feet in length would have a wingspan so huge (for the square-cube law) that they'd collapse under their own weight.

[Bugfoxmaster]

Don't think physics play that large a role, old boy.
Hmm... Maybe the claws are like fingernails - kind of not really used for cutting things up, more for protecting the tips of their digits? I dunno, not much explanation for this sort of thing happening. or Dragon fingers are really, really weak. Try challenging one to a thumb-war.

[Draco18s]

Don't think physics play that large a role, old boy.
Hmm... Maybe the claws are like fingernails - kind of not really used for cutting things up, more for protecting the tips of their digits? I dunno, not much explanation for this sort of thing happening. or Dragon fingers are really, really weak. Try challenging one to a thumb-war.

Under a rationalization for the weirdness on why they don't do STR/2 clawing damage, perhaps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Rystefn]

While it looks really cool, I do doubt the plausibility of it being a seriously damaging attack (D&D has this at an extreme where it does nearly the same damage as a claw swipe!). The bones won't be strong enough to stand up to that kind of abuse (relative to the claw digits). Distraction, sure (or in the case of Elemental Aura: some good burny-burn too).

Of course, we do have to consider that they're flying somehow without snapping the bones (magic, dur), as any dragon over about 15 feet in length would have a wingspan so huge (for the square-cube law) that they'd collapse under their own weight.

You also have to consider that swans can break your arm with a wing-buffet. That's right, this isn't something D&D invented. It's something that happens in the real world, and it works pretty well.

[Draco18s]

You also have to consider that swans can break your arm with a wing-buffet. That's right, this isn't something D&D invented. It's something that happens in the real world, and it works pretty well.

Birds I see no problems with them doing it, it's the 40+ foot wings with the 2" bones that make me go, "But! That'd fracture!"

And I'm not making up the 15 foot maximum length on a dragon, that realistically is the limit on biological structures supporting themselves due to the square-cube law ("as size doubles, area squares, and mass cubes").

Swans are only three feet long with an 8 foot wingspan. The physics don't hold up at 10 times that size (a 30 foot "swan" would need a wingspan of 1000 feet to lift its 33,000 pound body! There's a reason the longest wingspan of a bird ever recorded is from the albatross at 12 feet--anything larger simply breaks).

[Rystefn]

First: There are prehistoric reptiles larger than your hypothetical 15' limit. Unless you suggest they were ground-bound with wings and dinky little legs, your math is off.

Second: Dragons can fly. Obviously magic makes things different. If the dragon wing is strong enough to lift the dragon, it's strong enough to hit you. Any universe that allows flyers to scale up that way also allows the wings to still hit you and not snap.

Third: Let's call it Hardened Armor 8. That would go a long way towards maintaining the structural integrity of the creature under impact, no?

[Draco18s]

First: There are prehistoric reptiles larger than your hypothetical 15' limit. Unless you suggest they were ground-bound with wings and dinky little legs, your math is off.

First off, such creatures were mere 2 to 3 feet long and weighed in in a unit measured in ounces (eg. less than 5 pounds). It's aspect ratio (wing length to chord length) is extremely high (9:1), unlike how dragons are portrayed (closer to 1:1 to 2:1, even if you truncate the tail and the neck you're still looking at only 4:1).

Second: Dragons can fly. Obviously magic makes things different. If the dragon wing is strong enough to lift the dragon, it's strong enough to hit you. Any universe that allows flyers to scale up that way also allows the wings to still hit you and not snap.

Magic.

Third: Let's call it Hardened Armor 8. That would go a long way towards maintaining the structural integrity of the creature under impact, no?

Tensile strength vs. toughness.

Also, notably, hardened armor is mostly from scales, not from bones. Increasing bone density (making flight harder due to increased weight) increases "armor" value, yes, but you can only have one (less weight or tougher). Notably scales with a toughness rivaling steel armor plating would like be extremely heavy, also reducing flight capabilities.

[etherial]

First: There are prehistoric reptiles larger than your hypothetical 15' limit. Unless you suggest they were ground-bound with wings and dinky little legs, your math is off.

Second: Dragons can fly. Obviously magic makes things different. If the dragon wing is strong enough to lift the dragon, it's strong enough to hit you. Any universe that allows flyers to scale up that way also allows the wings to still hit you and not snap.

Third: Let's call it Hardened Armor 8. That would go a long way towards maintaining the structural integrity of the creature under impact, no?

There's evidence to suggest that the air had more CO₂ at that time, which would make it heavier, which would make it able to support more weight, which would change the ratios. Hmmm...maybe I should suggest that CO₂ is the source of all magic in that other thread...

[Rystefn]

First off, such creatures were mere 2 to 3 feet long and weighed in in a unit measured in ounces (eg. less than 5 pounds). It's aspect ratio (wing length to chord length) is extremely high (9:1), unlike how dragons are portrayed (closer to 1:1 to 2:1, even if you truncate the tail and the neck you're still looking at only 4:1).

Incorrect. Quetzalcoatlus

Tensile strength vs. toughness.

Damage is damage. Hardened armor stops damage. If it brotects the wing from being hit with a bat, it protects the wing from hitting you in the skull.

Also, notably, hardened armor is mostly from scales, not from bones. Increasing bone density (making flight harder due to increased weight) increases "armor" value, yes, but you can only have one (less weight or tougher). Notably scales with a toughness rivaling steel armor plating would like be extremely heavy, also reducing flight capabilities.

My rulebook doesn't say the Hardened Armor mostly comes from scales. Oh, and you can have something tougher and lighter. For example, steel is both tougher and lighter than gold. Hence, gold makes shitty armor, while steel makes pretty good armor (before guns, of course). That goes for bones and scales. If you don't have lighter and tougher at the same time, you don't have dragons. Period.

Again - if you have dragons at all, the things which are required to make them exist will also make the wing buffet a plausible attack form. Anything you point to that prevents it from working will also prevent the dragon from existing in the first place... Unless you want to say the dragon flies entirely my magical levitation, and the wings are merely decorative. If you're saying that, that's a perfectly valid stance, I suppose, but you should tell us so while arguing. Unstated Major Premise isn't kosher in polite society.

[Neraph]

Actually, there's evidence that the pre-flood (I can't believe "scientists" still refute this indisposable fact - 85%+ of the world's mountains are sedimentary rock, the world shows extremely obvious signs of water erosion, fossil graveyards are best explained by a global flood.. the list can easily go on) world had 50% more oxygen (as well as carbon dioxide) as well as 2-3 times the air pressure. This does a whole number of things, including causing all creatures to greatly increase size, it allows for the plasma in blood to become super-oxygenated, reducing the amount of gas exchange needed by breathing, and would mess around with air pressures, making other certain things plausable.

Also, don't forget pteryodactyl (....spelling?) fossils of ~16 foot wingspans have been found.

[Rystefn]

Actually, there's evidence that the pre-flood (I can't believe "scientists" still refute this indisposable fact - 85%+ of the world's mountains are sedimentary rock, the world shows extremely obvious signs of water erosion, fossil graveyards are best explained by a global flood.. the list can easily go on) world had 50% more oxygen (as well as carbon dioxide) as well as 2-3 times the air pressure. This does a whole number of things, including causing all creatures to greatly increase size, it allows for the plasma in blood to become super-oxygenated, reducing the amount of gas exchange needed by breathing, and would mess around with air pressures, making other certain things plausable.

I'm going to go with: this is not the place for the creationism argument.

[Nightfalke]

Incorrect. Quetzalcoatlus

One quick OT...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...Quetzscale1.png

Am I the only one who thinks those dinosaur outlines would make awesome starfighters, or other space faring dogfighter?

[Squinky]

I don't think dragon flight is all magic levitation by Shadowun RAW. Under the description for Drakes, it explains the sirrushes non winged flight as magical levitation, and does not on the others.

[Rystefn]

One quick OT...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...Quetzscale1.png

Am I the only one who thinks those dinosaur outlines would make awesome starfighters, or other space faring dogfighter?

For space opera, they would be awesome as Hell.
For Sci-fi, they would be a glaring hole in scientific plausibility.

[Draco18s]

Incorrect. Quetzalcoatlus

Never heard of it. I am mistaken. Still, does not achieve anywhere near the size and mass of a non-great dragon.

Damage is damage. Hardened armor stops damage. If it brotects the wing from being hit with a bat, it protects the wing from hitting you in the skull.

Only in a game system. In the real world there are many many kinds of damage.

If you don't have lighter and tougher at the same time, you don't have dragons. Period.

Correct. Which is why I am of the opinion that dragon scales do not protect better than skin (see: reptiles), however, game systems make that out to be the case.

Unless you want to say the dragon flies entirely my magical levitation, and the wings are merely decorative. If you're saying that, that's a perfectly valid stance, I suppose, but you should tell us so while arguing.

I was pretty sure I was in fact arguing as such.

I'm going to go with: this is not the place for the creationism argument.

I'm not sure its creationist, really. There is evidence to support a flood during ancient times which covered "most of the known world" (eg. Mesopotamia's "fertile valley"). Native Americans, Greeks, Egyptians, and other ancient religions all had a flood story (heck, Native Americans had a world destroyed by fire just after that--sound familiar? God said he'd destroy the earth next time by fire).

Still, the argument for a denser atmosphere is strong, as a higher CO2 content would raise atmospheric density, and it was the high CO2 content that gave birth to all life (starting with protoplants).

[Rystefn]

Never heard of it. I am mistaken. Still, does not achieve anywhere near the size and mass of a non-great dragon.

No, but it's pretty clearly well above the size you listed. Using only meat and bone without magic or other Sixth World Awesomeness.

Only in a game system. In the real world there are many many kinds of damage.

ShadowRun does not take place in the real world.

Correct. Which is why I am of the opinion that dragon scales do not protect better than skin (see: reptiles), however, game systems make that out to be the case.

I don't see where the game system indicated anything of the kind. I see Hardened Armor 8, but nothing about it being granted by the scales. Oh, and scales are slightly more protective than skin, but pretty much only against slight, incidental damage (see pretty much everything with scales being immune papercuts).

I was pretty sure I was in fact arguing as such.

I was, too... but you didn't say it. Or if you did, I missed it.

[Acidsaliva]

I think in some sci-fi book I read they had a 'dragon' (Ok they didn't call it a dragon but it was a large reptile that flew and breathed fire). And in trying to explain it, they said it accumulated a lighter-than-air gas in gas bladders inside its body from its digestive process. This meant that its wing span ratio could be off (being supported by its gas bladders) and that it burnt off excess gas as a defense mechanism (the fire breathing). Don't ask me how they 'explained' the ignition of the gas

[Draco18s]

And in trying to explain it, they said it accumulated a lighter-than-air gas in gas bladders inside its body from its digestive process.

Worst. Rational. Ever.

Do the math. It takes a balloon 36 feet in diameter filled with highly explosive hydrogen to give any meaningful lift to a creature the size of a human being (eg. very small dragon).

This rational is in fact so absurd that it makes me giggle every time someone mentions the "hydrogen balloon theory."

Or you could watch this video.