Metamagic and spirits, Slight variation of the options presented to technomancers Options

[Omenowl]

One of the echoes for technomancers is sprite link. This allows a technmancer to compile one additional type of sprite. I was wondering what ya'll think of having a metamagic technique to summon an additional type of spirit?

[Trigger]

One of the echoes for technomancers is sprite link. This allows a technmancer to compile one additional type of sprite. I was wondering what ya'll think of having a metamagic technique to summon an additional type of spirit?

It doesn't work for Magicians and Spirits because each of the five spirits that the magician can summon are attached to one of the spell types per the magician's tradition. So what spell type does the new spirit attach to? Can your new spirit type not aid your spellcasting tests because it isn't attached to any spell type?

[Omenowl]

Gives you one of two options on how to handle it. A) Either the player assigns the spirit to a spell type when the metamagic is taken or B) The new spirit is not attached to a spell type and gives no advantages such as research.

[Trigger]

Gives you one of two options on how to handle it. A) Either the player assigns the spirit to a spell type when the metamagic is taken or B) The new spirit is not attached to a spell type and gives no advantages such as research.

So either a) your character now suddenly has two spirit types to boost their primary spell type or b) the new spirit is much weaker than your other spirits. Neither is a good balance for a metamagic.

[hahnsoo]

So either a) your character now suddenly has two spirit types to boost their primary spell type or b) the new spirit is much weaker than your other spirits. Neither is a good balance for a metamagic.

Both choices are weaker than Invoking. And pretty much every other metamagic option out there. I think it's a "balanced" metamagic.

[Ascalaphus]

So either a) your character now suddenly has two spirit types to boost their primary spell type or b) the new spirit is much weaker than your other spirits. Neither is a good balance for a metamagic.

Giving a player a new option that's weaker than previous options is rarely a very bad thing. They don't have to take it..

Personally, I'd rather like this; for the opportunity to add some of the neater spirit types (task, guardian, man) to traditions that have advantages, like being a big tradition (hermetic, shamanic, wuxing..)

[Omenowl]

So either a) your character now suddenly has two spirit types to boost their primary spell type or b) the new spirit is much weaker than your other spirits. Neither is a good balance for a metamagic.

I am not sure how your new spirit is somehow much weaker than your other spirits. If you want to aid in spellcasting then yes it is weaker. However, as you have other types of spirits it in no way weakens you.

Option A) A hermetic mage that takes plant that aids in healing. He can summon and bind either man or plant for healing. The player would summon, whichever spirit he needed at the time that seemed appropriate for its powers.

Option B) If a magician wants to aid sorcery for healing he summons and binds a man spirit. He would probably not bind his plant spirit as it gives no benefit.

I was thinking though of allowing this metamagic to select if the new spirit type can materialize or possess.

[Draco18s]

Just remember, even if its not attached to a spell type, it just means the player can pick up Guardian spirits as any tradition and get Endowment! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jaid]

it can somewhat already be done with banishing. i don't see it as a huge problem, though i do think that getting a new type of spirit can be quite worthwhile (it can be handy for making an ally spirit better as well)

i don't think it should let possession traditions summon materialising spirits or vice versa though; while your tradition might be flexible enough to allow adding spirits of air or plant elementals, i don't see too many traditions having both possession and materialising spirits.

[Ascalaphus]

it can somewhat already be done with banishing. i don't see it as a huge problem, though i do think that getting a new type of spirit can be quite worthwhile (it can be handy for making an ally spirit better as well)

i don't think it should let possession traditions summon materialising spirits or vice versa though; while your tradition might be flexible enough to allow adding spirits of air or plant elementals, i don't see too many traditions having both possession and materialising spirits.

OTOH, you could take the metamagic to get a spirit type as both possession AND materialization, by adding it again as the other type.

[Jaid]

OTOH, you could take the metamagic to get a spirit type as both possession AND materialization, by adding it again as the other type.

allow me to clarify:

i don't think it really fits with any of the traditions, and as such generally wouldn't be inclined to allow a metamagic technique to grant the ability to summon spirits of your tradition that do not match up with other spirits of your tradition at all; if your spirits manifest, then it makes little sense to me to suddenly decide that spirits of your tradition can also possess. or, in other words... a regular mage can justify a 'plant elemental' as being a subtype of earth elementals or something like that, but would not be able to justify a fire elemental that possesses instead of manifesting, because the entire understanding of the mage is that you have these elementals that manifest their forms into the world. while mechanically, it may be the exact same spirit except with possession instead of manifesting, in terms of fluff it is much much more. it's the difference between the mage summoning a subtype of elemental, and the mage summoning a loa.

[Surukai]

Giving a player a new option that's weaker than previous options is rarely a very bad thing. They don't have to take it..

Personally, I'd rather like this; for the opportunity to add some of the neater spirit types (task, guardian, man) to traditions that have advantages, like being a big tradition (hermetic, shamanic, wuxing..)

And I dislike the idea for the exact same reason. At least now you have to choose between easier access to looted foci, spell formulas, trainers etc OR way more useful and utility in your spirits. Not eat the cake and still have it. It is quite obvious that the elemental spirits all do pretty much the same thing (got big overlap in powers) while the new (task and guardian being best examples) provide entierly new and far more useful powers. Magical Guard means you save a big pile of bp/karma on not needing counterspelling any more and knowing that your spirit does it far better anyway (dicepool of 16 compared to your puny 10-ish, 12 if you place counterspelling as "that one skill at 6" instead of summoning but yeah, good idea...)

[Omenowl]

I was thinking of allowing the possession even if it is not part of your tradition to be more for invocations. IE a golem for example. The idea is to expand your view of the universe at you initiate rather than be rote about it. It would have to be bought for each spirit type.

On that note I was thinking of adding armor to earth spirits similar to that of beetle insect spirits as an optional power (adds armor equal to its force).

[Nows7]

I was thinking of allowing the possession even if it is not part of your tradition to be more for invocations. IE a golem for example. The idea is to expand your view of the universe at you initiate rather than be rote about it. It would have to be bought for each spirit type.

On that note I was thinking of adding armor to earth spirits similar to that of beetle insect spirits as an optional power (adds armor equal to its force).

Perhaps allowing a metamagic that gives your spirits an additional optional power from it's list for every three grades or fraction there of that you posses?

An advanced metamagic that allows you to select a power that is possessed by one of the spirits in your tradition, but not by the one you are summoning?

[Draco18s]

Perhaps allowing a metamagic that gives your spirits an additional optional power from it's list for every three grades or fraction there of that you posses?

An advanced metamagic that allows you to select a power that is possessed by one of the spirits in your tradition, but not by the one you are summoning?

Read: the spirits get more powers, but not any new ones.

Compared to the original suggestion and various others: getting actually new powers from outside your tradition.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And I dislike the idea for the exact same reason. At least now you have to choose between easier access to looted foci, spell formulas, trainers etc OR way more useful and utility in your spirits. Not eat the cake and still have it. It is quite obvious that the elemental spirits all do pretty much the same thing (got big overlap in powers) while the new (task and guardian being best examples) provide entierly new and far more useful powers. Magical Guard means you save a big pile of bp/karma on not needing counterspelling any more and knowing that your spirit does it far better anyway (dicepool of 16 compared to your puny 10-ish, 12 if you place counterspelling as "that one skill at 6" instead of summoning but yeah, good idea...)

Have many Force 16 Spirits in your game? (Dice Pool 16 for Counterspelling), and I have not seen any PC's with a Counterspelling Skill in the Puny 10-12 Range, as that is what you would need to counter magic as it is cast, according to the above post... in-place magic gets the benefit of Magic Rating to help dispel (counterspell) an active spell, but one that is being cast only gets the relevant Skill to help negate the effect...

But I have seen a character with a skill of 6, Mentor Bonus to Counterppell and Mentor Bonus to Manipulation Spells and Specialization in Manipulation Spells for a total of 12 added to the Counterspelling of Manipulation Spells... pretty brutal, and somewhat costly...

Keep the Faith...

[Jaid]

I was thinking of allowing the possession even if it is not part of your tradition to be more for invocations. IE a golem for example. The idea is to expand your view of the universe at you initiate rather than be rote about it. It would have to be bought for each spirit type.

On that note I was thinking of adding armor to earth spirits similar to that of beetle insect spirits as an optional power (adds armor equal to its force).

you can create a golem equivalent with an ally spirit that inhabits an appropriate homunculus.

[Omenowl]

you can create a golem equivalent with an ally spirit that inhabits an appropriate homunculus.

Allies are a whole different issue...