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> Some HMHVV questions, Yes, AH--I've read "The Infected" :)
Velocity
post Feb 6 2004, 08:46 PM
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I'm compiling a list of information relating to the HMHVV for my players and I came across a few blank spots:

Does anyone know what effect (if any) the Jarka-Criscione strain (aka HMHVV-II) has on dwarves, elves and orks? Humans express as loup-garou, trolls as fomorians and sasquatch become bandersnatch(1), but I can't seem to find any canonical information on the other three main metatypes.

Also, why on earth do vampiric pawns gain the power Immunity (Normal Weapons) while vampires and nosferatu do not? Seems damned stupid to me. I mean, what's the incentive to have your bloodsucking boss make you like him or her? After years of serving as a pawn and enjoying the benefits of lackey-hood, why give up such a huge perk?

"Uh, yeah... look boss, about that whole 'embracing-me-into-the-dark-fold' thing: mind if you, like, don't? See, I've really gotten used to having bullets bounce off me like raisins off an Oldsmobile and I'd hate to lose that power once I'm made into an immortal night creature."

Seems like a rules oversight to me.

1: Does anyone know what the plural of bandersnatch is? Bandersnatches? Bandersnatch? Bandersnatchi? Ouchie-ouchie-get-these-things-off-me?
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Feb 6 2004, 09:17 PM
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Don't waste your time. It's been done.

VPs don't have Regeneration or the ability to turn to mist and let bullets pass through them.
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Velocity
post Feb 6 2004, 09:40 PM
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Yeah... the second line of my post header, where I mention that I've read Ancient History's article on HMHVV? That was meant to preclude suggestions that I read the article. Thanks though. ;)

As for Mist Form: it's a nice little power, but unfortunately it's also Exclusive and Complex, meaning that it can't be engaged as a response to being shot it. In other words, if I surprise a vampire and his/her pawn with a hail of automatic gunfire, the pawn will yawn and shrug it off while the vampire has to worry about dodging, soaking and possibly even being killed. I realize that Regeneration is an excellent contingency power, but it's not foolproof--Immunity is.
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Frag-o Delux
post Feb 6 2004, 09:59 PM
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Immunity is not fool proof either, if the Pawn has a low essence then he can be killed just as easy as if he didn't have it. Were a vampire might get shot to hell, with a farely good chance of him jumping up the next phase to retaliate. The Pawn with Immunity will be dead.
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GunnerJ
post Feb 6 2004, 10:02 PM
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QUOTE
"Uh, yeah... look boss, about that whole 'embracing-me-into-the-dark-fold' thing: mind if you, like, don't? See, I've really gotten used to having bullets bounce off me like raisins off an Oldsmobile and I'd hate to lose that power once I'm made into an immortal night creature."


Perhaps the point is, once they become true vamps they won't need to defelct bullets, because they'll rarely be in combat situations. That's what pawns are for, after all.
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Jason Farlander
post Feb 6 2004, 10:05 PM
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I'm pretty sure that HMHVV will kill whatever it doesnt transform, so this is likely the case concerning HMHVV-II and elves, dwarves or orks.

I dont know about you, but I, personally, would take the trade in of Immunity to Normal Weapons for doubled essence, enhanced physical attributes, enhanced hearing and smell, thermographic vision, immunity to pathogens and poisons, mist form, and, regeneration. Especially considering that the trade-in allows me to generate a nice meat shield of vampiric pawns.

It there anything that says Vampires can not cast spells while in Mist form? It says that shifting is exclusive, but sustaining isnt mentioned as being the same. Since sustaining an innate ability doesnt add TN modifiers, Vampires can just float around and blow sh*t up magically, using their pawns for things that cant be done. I think thats pretty damn sweet, personally.
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Velocity
post Feb 6 2004, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE
Frag-o Delux wrote:
Immunity is not fool proof either, if the Pawn has a low essence then he can be killed just as easy as if he didn't have it.
QUOTE
GunnerJ wrote:
Perhaps the point is, once they become true vamps they won't need to defelct bullets, because they'll rarely be in combat situations. That's what pawns are for, after all.

These are both excellent points: I hadn't considered Frag-o Delux's take on Immunity. Maybe I overreacted, but I still question why the pawn would suddenly lose the power upon infection. Still, these are good arguments in favour of the exchange.
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Siege
post Feb 6 2004, 10:32 PM
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Yeah! Waste those spineless prawns!

-Siege
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Velocity
post Feb 6 2004, 10:42 PM
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QUOTE
Jason Farlander wrote:
I'm pretty sure that HMHVV will kill whatever it doesnt transform, so this is likely the case concerning HMHVV-II and elves, dwarves or orks.

Yeah, that's what I'd figured as well. I was just hoping someone else had some more precise information for me.

QUOTE
Jason Farlander wrote:
It there anything that says Vampires can not cast spells while in Mist form?

Well, an Exclusive spell remains Exclusive while it is sustained; in other words, one can not do anything else while sustaining an Exclusive spell (SR3, p. 180). Whether or not this applies to critter powers is another question entirely. Good idea though.
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Frag-o Delux
post Feb 6 2004, 10:49 PM
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I haven't read the Vampiric Pawn entry in a long time, does their essence change like a Vampires does? I mean Vampires have to keep drinking blood to get a high essence does a Pawn? Also that would make a Sam a less then ideal Pawn, true he maybe able to use his cyber (does the cyber in a Pawn still work?) but his Immunity will be low, what does an average Sam have for essence? 2 or 3? I have seen games were Sams had .2 or .3, so he would have Immunity of .4 or .6. :)
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Lilt
post Feb 6 2004, 11:31 PM
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Vampiric pawns are odd. They do have Essence Loss but it is a special version which is not described. It states that they must drink vampire/nosferatu blood regularly otherwise they become laethargic, then comatose, then die. It dosen't describe the process for making them either, another source book may be needed for that.

Personally I suspect that means that they have a fairly fast essence loss but can recieve essence from vampires through blood.

It also states that Vampiric Pawns have a minimum essence of 2, which has the possibly EXTREMELY munchkin side-effect of meaning they can install an infinite amount of cyberware. You could get a character with so much cyber installed that they are effectively at -10 essence without any willpower reduction (in-fact they have a minimum willpower of 5) and immunity (normal weapons) giving 4 points of hardened armor... That's definately a formidable foe.
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toturi
post Feb 7 2004, 12:22 AM
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What does the minimum essense line actually say? A vampiric pawn has a minimum essense of 2, right? So if a pawn implants anything to reduce his essense than he loses his VP powers?
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Siege
post Feb 7 2004, 12:23 AM
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*ROFL*

I'm gonna cure you by cramming your body with cyberware!

-Siege
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252
post Feb 7 2004, 02:17 AM
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::Starts laughing as well::


Hmmm, well I do believe that is true.

However I would put it more like this, your death will purify you. ::installs cyberware::

Yes you are now dead.
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Fortune
post Feb 7 2004, 05:11 AM
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Y'all might be interested in Steve Kenson's views on this topic. Bad Blood was originally slated for inclusion in Dunky's Secrets, but was cut for space reasons. :)
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Fortune
post Feb 7 2004, 05:14 AM
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QUOTE (Velocity)
Well, an Exclusive spell remains Exclusive while it is sustained; in other words, one can not do anything else while sustaining an Exclusive spell (SR3, p. 180).

On the other hand, Astral Projection, which is also an Exclusive act, does not preclude spellcasting after the actual projection has taken place. :)
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Herald of Verjig...
post Feb 7 2004, 05:17 AM
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Note that the mist form description states that shifting into mist form is an exclusive complex action, as is shifting out. This would imply that sustaining it is nothing, otherwise, the vampire would be unable to begin the exclusive complex action to take a solid form, and would have to drift into a sunbeam every time it wants to have a skeletal structure.
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Moonstone Spider
post Feb 7 2004, 06:17 PM
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How would you install cyberware in a vampiric pawn? If he's immune to normal weapons it's gonna be a bitch finding a way to cut him open to put the cyberware in.

Unless said immunity doesn't apply to surgical lasers and scalpels but that strikes me as pretty dumb.
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Frag-o Delux
post Feb 7 2004, 06:19 PM
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A surgeon adept, with scaple foci 6. :)
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Austere Emancipa...
post Feb 7 2004, 06:23 PM
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Immunity doesn't have to mean you can't cut the bastard open. It might just mean it doesn't affect the VP's ability to act normally. If neccessary, cut him open with a chainsaw and use mechanical jaws that rip the wound wide open. As long as the VP doesn't regenerate, putting stuff in should be easy.
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Jason Farlander
post Feb 7 2004, 06:24 PM
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Actually, lasers count as elemental effects, and bypass half of the armor rating granted by the immunity to normal weapons. This still might not be enough depending on what the power of a normal surgical laser is (probably less than or equal to the "tool laser" in M&M, so 3-4L), but it should do the trick if you can wait until the Vampiric Pawn is at a low essence.
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Velocity
post Feb 8 2004, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE
Frag-o Delux wrote:
I have seen games were Sams had .2 or .3, so he would have Immunity of .4 or .6.

0.3?! These people are bursting with holistic health! The samurai, decker and rigger in my game all are hovering around 0.05 Essence and seriously debating installing alpha-grade routers. :D :cyber:

QUOTE
Velocity wrote:
Well, an Exclusive spell remains Exclusive while it is sustained; in other words, one can not do anything else while sustaining an Exclusive spell (SR3, p. 180). Whether or not this applies to critter powers is another question entirely. Good idea though.
QUOTE
Fortune wrote:
On the other hand, Astral Projection, which is also an Exclusive act, does not preclude spellcasting after the actual projection has taken place.
QUOTE
Herald of Verjigorm wrote:
Note that the mist form description states that shifting into mist form is an exclusive complex action, as is shifting out. This would imply that sustaining it is nothing, otherwise, the vampire would be unable to begin the exclusive complex action to take a solid form, and would have to drift into a sunbeam every time it wants to have a skeletal structure.

Well put, both of you. I suspected something of the sort and your arguments convinced me. So if sustaining Mist Form is not, in fact, an Exclusive action... crikey, Jason may be onto something truly nasty. :eek:
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Fortune
post Feb 8 2004, 11:48 PM
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Did you get a chance to check out that site I linked?
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Jason Farlander
post Feb 9 2004, 12:28 AM
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I read the story, Fortune... but I find myself wondering what it is (if anything in particular) you thought we should learn from doing so.
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Fortune
post Feb 9 2004, 12:32 AM
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I was under the impression from this:
QUOTE (Velocity)
I'm compiling a list of information relating to the HMHVV...

that Velocity was interested in any information available. Since Bad Blood was originally scheduled for inclusion in canon, and is hosted on Steve Kenson's site, I had though it might be of some interest. Pardon me for wasting your time.
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