Why does the magic cost so little in 4e Options

[tete]

I'm just wondering why being an adept/magician etc costs so little. I mean 5pts for an adept with a free magic point. Who wouldn't want that? I'm still used to Magic = A, B if your lucky so think long and hard before you take it. It would seam to me that magic is the most unbalanced part of the game with there being no cap on magic rating. Everyone else will eventually max out their abilities while the magic users continue to get better. Isn't that an edge that should cost more upfront?

[edit] the only thing I could think of is to make it more like earthdawn where your all adepts but that seams like a weak idea.

[Fezig]

I find that an interesting balance issue. Magician builds tend to end up very BP tight, so upping that cost would exaggerate the already existent issue there, but at the same time in the long run it is a major advantage. Is the answer more of a finding a way to make it cost more to get better? That seems to address your issue more. Something along the lines of upping the cost of initiating and raising your magic.

[etherial]

I'm just wondering why being an adept/magician etc costs so little. I mean 5pts for an adept with a free magic point. Who wouldn't want that? I'm still used to Magic = A, B if your lucky so think long and hard before you take it. It would seam to me that magic is the most unbalanced part of the game with there being no cap on magic rating. Everyone else will eventually max out their abilities while the magic users continue to get better. Isn't that an edge that should cost more upfront?

[edit] the only thing I could think of is to make it more like earthdawn where your all adepts but that seams like a weak idea.

Back when Magic was Priority A, you got Magic 6 at character creation and free spell points. Now, to get to Magic 6 at character creation costs 65 BP PLUS the BP cost of the Awakened Quality PLUS the BP cost of Spells. They added the possibility of starting out as a mediocre spellcaster, which I think is an overall plus to playability and general game cohesion.

While the cap on Magic Rating (Essence + Initiate Grade) is variable, it very much is a cap since it costs Karma to Initiate and to raise Magic.

[tete]

Back when Magic was Priority A, you got Magic 6 at character creation and free spell points. Now, to get to Magic 6 at character creation costs 65 BP PLUS the BP cost of the Awakened Quality PLUS the BP cost of Spells. They added the possibility of starting out as a mediocre spellcaster, which I think is an overall plus to playability and general game cohesion.

While the cap on Magic Rating (Essence + Initiate Grade) is variable, it very much is a cap since it costs Karma to Initiate and to raise Magic.

Sure but you could spend those spell points on other things, or if you want to go back to 2e you didnt get any free spell points (tied to your resources). I also can agree that karma costs are prohibitive but in the old days with no skill caps my non-magic user could keep dumping my karma into my skill, now thats not an option per the RAW or even an official optional rule. I guess if no one had caps I wouldn't have a problem with it but the fact is magic users follow a different set of rules than non magic users. And honestly magic users have always = win. Now they = more win.

[Rystefn]

Don't forget: not only is you Magic limited by you Initiate grade, your initiate grade is limited by your magic. This gets very Karma intensive very quickly. Also, raising your magic rating too high won't help you so much after a certain point, as you'll just drain-kill yourself. In my experience, starting magic characters are about on-par with non-magic characters. If you have 400 karma on top of that, magic types will tend to pull ahead, though.

[Critias]

I'm just wondering why being an adept/magician etc costs so little. I mean 5pts for an adept with a free magic point. Who wouldn't want that?

Someone with a datajack?

[Mongoose]

Yeah, for 5 points you can have a magic rating of 1, which does not a whole lot for yah. And you also have absolutely zero implants, else you loose that magic. How many character's have you seen with really lame magic AND no implants?

[Johnny Hammersti...]

I've created a particularly nasty Yakuza operative, Shinto tradition, aspected toward conjuring. Cheap magic makes spellcasters more flexible, which in theory makes a better more enjoyable game.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah, for 5 points you can have a magic rating of 1, which does not a whole lot for yah. And you also have absolutely zero implants, else you loose that magic. How many character's have you seen with really lame magic AND no implants?

Yeah, but its not that expensive to raise it up a few points so you get beyond the oops I can't have any implants stage. Magic especially mages is really cheap for what you get. Yes, you have to put a heck of a lot into it in order to make something of it, but it gets you more than you pay for IMO.

And yes unlimited advancement is awesome especially when you are the only game in town that can do that. If they removed the skill cap limit(I think its a dumb limit anyways) it would not be as big of a deal. I hate to say it but I'd rather they look at 3-3.5 ED D&D a bit and pay attention to the idea that same type modifiers don't stack if they want to limit pools, and not put a cap on skill points. This would also have the IMO nice benefit of letting norms stay somewhat effective without having to cyber up to the gills.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I've created a particularly nasty Yakuza operative, Shinto tradition, aspected toward conjuring. Cheap magic makes spellcasters more flexible, which in theory makes a better more enjoyable game.

Well for spell casters at least.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well for spell casters at least.

It is funny that you say that...

The Spellcasters in our group (Ever since 4th came out) have been the most fragile characters out there (and there have been some fairly powerful mages in our group)... not only are they having to worry about Drain, but the are also having to worry about the gunbunny street sam or the Uber martial artist just walking up and outright killing them... Yes they can be very powerful, but that magic attribute is not cheap (New Rating * 5) and Initiation is somewhat expensive (though it is able to become somewhat cost effective with Groups/Ordeals)... but I have yet to see a mundane have a really hard time in killing a mage... I suppose it could happen, but I have seen more Mages die than Non-Mages (at least as far as PC's are concerned)...

And mages are hampered in areas that a mundane is not... so I think it all balances out quite nicely in the end...

And a point... Technomancers are another archtype that have effective unlimited advancement in their Special Stat (Resonance)

[Shinobi Killfist]

It is funny that you say that...

The Spellcasters in our group (Ever since 4th came out) have been the most fragile characters out there (and there have been some fairly powerful mages in our group)... not only are they having to worry about Drain, but the are also having to worry about the gunbunny street sam or the Uber martial artist just walking up and outright killing them... Yes they can be very powerful, but that magic attribute is not cheap (New Rating * 5) and Initiation is somewhat expensive (though it is able to become somewhat cost effective with Groups/Ordeals)... but I have yet to see a mundane have a really hard time in killing a mage... I suppose it could happen, but I have seen more Mages die than Non-Mages (at least as far as PC's are concerned)...

And mages are hampered in areas that a mundane is not... so I think it all balances out quite nicely in the end...

And a point... Technomancers are another archtype that have effective unlimited advancement in their Special Stat (Resonance)

Technomancers are mages just with a different name. But your experiences are vastly different than mine. In 4e mages have been more survivable and more powerful than previous editions for us. It wasn't exactly a challenge for the gun bunny to waste a mage in 2e, the gun bunnies actually have a harder time in 4e for us. I worry abut drain less in this edition than I have in past editions, though ever since 1e I think drain has been too light.(1e was too harsh though)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Technomancers are mages just with a different name. But your experiences are vastly different than mine. In 4e mages have been more survivable and more powerful than previous editions for us. It wasn't exactly a challenge for the gun bunny to waste a mage in 2e, the gun bunnies actually have a harder time in 4e for us. I worry abut drain less in this edition than I have in past editions, though ever since 1e I think drain has been too light.(1e was too harsh though)

Yeah, my evidence may be anecdotal... but I have Seen a Gunbunny waste a mage with an Assault Rifle and get so many hits that even with the dice gods, the mage had no chance... By the Same token, I watched a Shedim (Force 3) Street Sam one-shot the 150 Karma Point Mage (heavy combat mage) becasue he acted first and essentially caved his head in... Hell I had a fairly powerful Necromancer with Powerful Spirits on hand get killed because the Ghoul went first and closed with me before my spirits could actualy take an action (I was surprised)... 2 hits later (even with Physical and Magical Armor and other protections) I was shedim food...

Drain is definitely friendly (not much of a threat) if you know how to set your spells though, and are careful with how and when you cast (because after all, the dice gods do fail you from time to time)... and of course, you could spec for that very thing, which I have seen often enough...

Keep the Faith

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah, my evidence may be anecdotal... but I have Seen a Gunbunny waste a mage with an Assault Rifle and get so many hits that even with the dice gods, the mage had no chance... By the Same token, I watched a Shedim (Force 3) Street Sam one-shot the 150 Karma Point Mage (heavy combat mage) becasue he acted first and essentially caved his head in... Hell I had a fairly powerful Necromancer with Powerful Spirits on hand get killed because the Ghoul went first and closed with me before my spirits could actualy take an action (I was surprised)... 2 hits later (even with Physical and Magical Armor and other protections) I was shedim food...

Drain is definitely friendly (not much of a threat) if you know how to set your spells though, and are careful with how and when you cast (because after all, the dice gods do fail you from time to time)... and of course, you could spec for that very thing, which I have seen often enough...

Keep the Faith

In 2e and 3e we frequently rolled enough successes on attacks a mage was dead even with all successes, especially with a bust from an assault rifle. We just have overall a lot less 1 shot kills in 4e which gives the mage the opportunity to act and 1 shot most if not all of the opposition if he is pressed(though then he takes drain). Dont get me wrong on my last mage it took me two shots to take out the citymasters.(I don't think I'd hurt them on average in 2e) And ever since grounding was removed in 3e mages have had it easy with spell locks(sustaining focuses) which has been a massive survivability boost.

Dpn't get me wrong anyone can kill anyone, and if that is the definition of balance I guess they are. But I think who contributes the most to the mission is a big thing, and mages virtually run the show in that department. It is like you bring a technomancer and a mage and the rest are there for window dressing.

[Glyph]

I think mages are balanced at char-gen. They are like riggers, hackers, and technomancers when compared to sammies - they potentially wield more power, but they tend to be "squishier". Sammies can also be very tough at char-gen. Various options let them start with more resources and higher-Availability gear, allowing some brutal builds.

But I hate, hate, hate unlimited advancement - even if it doesn't really come up in actual play until you get to high levels of Karma, I still don't like that a sammie can only get so good with a gun, but a mage can potentially reach triple digits of Magic.

If I had to house rule it, here is how I would do it. I would cap the maximum Magic rating at double Essence, and limit levels of Initiation to Magic rating. So the most you could get would be 12 Magic with 12 levels of Initiation. And adepts would still be able to get a cheap, easy boost from bioware, but it would actually matter more in the long run for them. I would cap immortal elves and great dragons a bit higher by giving them a higher base Essense - say, 8 Essence for the immortal elves, and 10-12 Essence for dragons/great dragons, making them more powerful than a normal human mage could ever be, but not the ludicrous game world-breaking monstrosities that they can potentially be now.

It's less a matter of balance, and more a desire for consistency - if you are going to have hard caps, then don't make glaring exceptions to them.

[Thanee]

Yeah, the Qualities are so low cost, because of the other costs involved, which you have to pay, if you really want to use that magic for something.

And while magic advancement is technically unlimited... the borders for sammy's are also pretty high, when you look at the reaaaaally high end (all deltaware, genetech).

The "fun" part is, that at this point, the mage needs gazillions of Karma, while the Sammy needs gazillions of Nuyen.

Bye
Thanee

[Nows7]

Yeah, the Qualities are so low cost, because of the other costs involved, which you have to pay, if you really want to use that magic for something.

And while magic advancement is technically unlimited... the borders for sammy's are also pretty high, when you look at the reaaaaally high end (all deltaware, genetech).

The "fun" part is, that at this point, the mage needs gazillions of Karma, while the Sammy needs gazillions of Nuyen.

Bye
Thanee

While the Sammy needs gazillions of NY, don't forget that in getting that gazillions of NY, he'll also get Gazillions of karma. Meaning that he'll be able to have half a gazillion ranks in every skill. The mage will have spent his gazillions of karma to up his magic to a tenth of a gazillion.

(all measurements are accurate to the nearest multiple of zero)

[Thanee]

Nah, at this point the Sammy has all attributes and skills maxed out already. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ok, maybe not quite... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Of course, the mage - if willing - can also use lots of money for highest quality (i.e. delta-bioware) implants. Or to buy that permanent luxury lifestyle. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[tete]

For Mage survivability... Armor spell, its now easier that ever, combined that with stunbolt and at leased against people your pretty awesome.

The thing on cost is your basically getting an attribute point for free as a magic user. Combined that with the no cap and your a head of the game. Sure you have to buy spells with karma but they are individually pretty cheap and raising magic to 6 cost no more than any other attribute. Its true you cant raise it with cyberware and it cost a lot to initiate then you still have to buy the magic point but thats the price for having no cap. The only disadvantage is unlike other attributes you don't have a way to go above 6 without the cost of initiation.

I would propose a hard cap on initiation around 3, then in high karma games your mage is forced to diversify like everyone else.

[Draco18s]

I would cap immortal elves and great dragons a bit higher by giving them a higher base Essense - say, 8 Essence for the immortal elves, and 10-12 Essence for dragons/great dragons, making them more powerful than a normal human mage could ever be, but not the ludicrous game world-breaking monstrosities that they can potentially be now.

Dragons already have 12 Essence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[WalksWithWiFi]

hardcap of 3 on initiation? No thanks.
That's severely gimping the magician.
Last time i checked, 15 bp for an attribute(magic) is not a free attribute.
(and yes i am fully aware of the cost of adepts and mystic adepts)
especially taking into account all other attributes, including edge, start at 1 for 0 bp

And i am sorry, but your basic run of the mill cyber pc sammy has easily more armor than a mage
sustaining an armor spell.

And their armor isn't limited to the force they can cast it at, nor can it be tore down on the astral plane with
counter spelling.

Also, without a sustained combat sense(or whatever it is called)spell, most sammy/cyber pc's will have a higher reaction,
therefore dodge pool.

just my two cents.

Oh, and stunbolt doesn't do jack to a sammy with a pain editor.
(unless of course you were to overflow spam him to death.......though i think you would be dead at that point)

[Warlordtheft]

Yeah, mages are effective at what they do, name another PC that isn't good at their specialty (ok--a PC generalist would be the exception).

But even at unlimited advancement, the karma costs could be expensive. Let's assume karma is awrded at a rate of 6 per session (adventure is a different measure, as not all adventures end in one sesssion).

Now let's assume you use BP method and start at a 5 magic rating.
Rasing to 6 costs 30 Karma.
Raising to 7 costs 35 Karma + Initiation (which varies).
Raising to 8 costs 40 Karma + Initiation (which varies).
Raising to 9 costs 45 Karma + Initiation (which varies).

So in the end to get your magic to a 9 costs 110 karma (+3 levels of initiation). This is a bare minimum of 130 Karma to accomplish. Which means you'll need 22 sessions to get to that level.
This also means---no new spells, no new skills, no bonding of Foci for those 22 sessions.

The question becomes, is it worth it above a certain point?
Sure you have a magic of 9, and a drek high dice pool for any tests involving the magic attribute. But would it be better spent on foci, expanding your skill set/spell list, increasing your other attributes (like body, agility, reaction, or charisma---strength you can skip).

[Medicineman]

So in the end to get your magic to a 9 costs 110 karma (+3 levels of initiation).

You mean 150 Karma + ca 50 Karma for Initiation
And I know a lot of Gamemaster that are Miserly and give only 5-6 Karma per Run
so its 30-40 Runs just to have MAG 9

with way too many Dances
Medicineman

[tete]

hardcap of 3 on initiation? No thanks.
That's severely gimping the magician.
Last time i checked, 15 bp for an attribute(magic) is not a free attribute.
(and yes i am fully aware of the cost of adepts and mystic adepts)
especially taking into account all other attributes, including edge, start at 1 for 0 bp

And i am sorry, but your basic run of the mill cyber pc sammy has easily more armor than a mage
sustaining an armor spell.

And their armor isn't limited to the force they can cast it at, nor can it be tore down on the astral plane with
counter spelling.

Also, without a sustained combat sense(or whatever it is called)spell, most sammy/cyber pc's will have a higher reaction,
therefore dodge pool.

just my two cents.

Oh, and stunbolt doesn't do jack to a sammy with a pain editor.
(unless of course you were to overflow spam him to death.......though i think you would be dead at that point)

Last time I checked you got astral projection for that 15 BP... Oh and that street sam is toast... unless your street sam has a high willpower cus he gets no defense and IIRC pain editor doesn't keep you conscious when you run out of stun boxes... Or maybe you want to use manabolt if it does, still the same thing the only defense your sammie gets is a will roll. With an Initiation of 3 you would still have a Magic of 9


My players probably average around 8 karma a run. Usually 5 + 1 to 3 for roleplaying + any good idea bonuses + any really awesome scene roleplaying.
so 8x40 (one year of playing) = 320 karma, 640 after 2 years, 960 after 3 years (at this point probably retire except for cameo apearences)

[WalksWithWiFi]

yes, the pain editor prevents you from passing out from full stun.
it also boosts their willpower by one.
As you or others have stated, sammies don't have to specialize as much into the magic
field, and eventually, especially with the crazy amounts of karma you are giving out, (could)have more
willpower.
This is also taking into account you can see the sammy(if they have infiltration skills, which they have
had more karma to dump into these skill things after all-not even astral perception helps heaps).
And lets not forget that there might be visibilty modifiers, or they might have counter spelling protecting them.

There are a lot of variables, my point is mostly that magic isn't as powerful and cut and dry cheap as you
claim(or think) it to be.