Sneaking vs. Magic, The plight of a ninja Shadowrunner Options

[Draco Strife]

Hey everyone. I got a player who had a major complaint about his character, a well-cybered out ninja to put a long story short (I don't have his sheet, but probably stealth skill group up to 4-5). Aside from the fact that he wants a chance to shine, which I may give him the chance to do, he's feeling like he's gimped due to the fact that being a mundane he's going to get owned by every Melvin the wage mage he comes across.

Here's what led up to his complaint by explaining what happened in my last run.

The runners are working in Los Angeles, and the face gets a call from one of her contacts about a job. The Koshari want something moved across town, simple (hah!). The meet went okay, but the issue came about when they had to pick up the package in question. Our ninja noticed that the warehouse they were going to go pick up the package was guarded, makes sense; the Koshari want to keep their business protected from outside threats obviously. When the runners approach the warehouse, they want the face to go in alone (our face is also an Amerindian shaman).

Here's where it gets interesting, our ninja believes this is a classic setup and they might possibly be getting owned. He wants to sneak in, so he rolls for infiltation (about 5 hits, he's really good at what he does). While the in-the-flesh guards obviosuly don't notice him, the infiltrator fails to notice that there are spirits floating about inside the building, and the spirits quickly inform the Koshari that there's another outsider in the building. Stealth does not hide his aura from spirits, as any mage knows. Thankfully the Koshari, instead of blasting everyone in sight, politely tell the face to remove her comrade from the building. After doing so to an obviously upset ninja, the Koshari hand over the package to the face, and the runners leave.

The run went well, but after the run on the next day several of the runner's apartments explode (for another reason of course), the ninja being one of them, resulting in a loss of her gear.

Last evening my friend complains that any sucker who can cast magic missile will surely own him, and wants to put his points and well-earned karma into guns. On top of which he feels he's even more useless without his stuff. I try to explain as that's why you have teammates who back you up. Having gun skills is also nice, but the last thing you want to leave in a run are tons of bodies and shell casings. In summary, he feels he cannot effectively play his role due to magic, when he still clearly has an advantage with his skill at infiltration and being-all around sneaky. He's being quite stubborn about it too, so that's why I come to you experienced runners here on Dumpshock.

How do I explain that stealth is one of the better skills to have in the game and how is magic not the "be all of end alls" in the sixth world? I know the corps and some crime elements (like the shamanic Koshari) like to hire magicians often so our ninja is going to deal with magic no matter what. How else do I explain why her team and her contacts are also important as well?

[DireRadiant]

While the in-the-flesh guards obviosuly don't notice him, the infiltrator fails to notice that there are spirits floating about inside the building, and the spirits quickly inform the Koshari that there's another outsider in the building. Stealth does not hide his aura from spirits, as any mage knows.

Infiltration skill works against assensing as well. Those 5 hits also counted against the spirits.

[WalksWithWiFi]

yep, the spirits would have to roll assensing plus intuition and get the 5 hits/more? to notice him.

same with astrally perceiving magicians, dual natured critters..yada yada.

[PatB]

It's been said in other posts: the best way to deal with the astral is to play it like in the physical world but using other skills. You want to see the guy ?? Make a Perception (physical) or Assessensing (astral) test.

I'm also assuming that in any shadowy skills (like infiltration), there's some type of training/tricks for the mundanes to use to evade the attention of the astral. For instance, hiding behind a window blocks the astral perception. Using mundane objects to hid will do the same in the astral.

[forgarn]

I first would have to ask if the spirits did a perception check just like the meat guards did? All the spirits listed in SR4A have the perception skill (except watchers), and since the all the stealth skills says that they use an opposed check vs perception then I would have to say that he spirits would also need to do a check.

Yes, they are on the astral plane and yes they can see his aura, but...

Living things that are not active on the astral plane still cast a reflection of themselves there, called an aura. Any non-living objects appear as faded semblances of their physical selves, gray and lifeless,
while the auras of living things are vibrant and colorful. Anything active on the astral plane has a tangible astral form— projecting magicians, spirits, dual-natured beings, and so on. Astral forms are more colorful and brighter than auras, as they are astrally “real.”

Hence with the spirits and the shamanistic Koshari and the face having astral forms, then it is possible to miss the non-active ninja, hence the perception check. In addition, the cyberware that the ninja is wearing would break up his aura...

While clothes and other non-living objects are often outshone by the brightness of the wearer’s aura, intrusive non-living objects like cyberware leave shadowy gaps in auras.

That would be what I would do.

If you don't do that then she really does have a good point in that if he can't sneak around without spirits automatically seeing him, then his character is rather useless. Especially is, like you say, he will have to deal with magic no matter what.

[Draco Strife]

Infiltration skill works against assensing as well. Those 5 hits also counted against the spirits.

Ah, now that's a major OOPS on my part. I was unaware about that rule, which I'll certainly let my friend know about next time I talk with him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This brings up another question now for the astral. Just hiding behind physical objects is enough to keep spirits and mages from seeing you unless they can assense you successfully?

[WalksWithWiFi]

yes, but there is still an infiltration roll to make-unless of course they are behind a wall/etc.

also, have it noted that you do not penalize those assensing with the modifier from the chameleon suit,
if he has one of those.

[Warlordtheft]

yes, but there is still an infiltration roll to make-unless of course they are behind a wall/etc.

also, have it noted that you do not penalize those assensing with the modifier from the chameleon suit,
if he has one of those.

Which also brings up a good point---ultrasound would bypass the camo suit as well. A detect life/guns spell would bypass the infiltration roll all together---but that would require a mage to be present and within range of the infiltrator.

[Smokeskin]

Either way, you still have to compare this to sneaking past invisible guards. When you use infiltration, you hear or see patrols, hide, move when they're out of sight or looking the other way, etc., stuff you can't do if you can't see or hear the guards. Spirits patrolling the warehouse will catch him unaware, and on top of this they they'll be flying above most cover.

You need a projecting mage along to handle spirits, or give him the ability to see astrally.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Either way, you still have to compare this to sneaking past invisible guards. When you use infiltration, you hear or see patrols, hide, move when they're out of sight or looking the other way, etc., stuff you can't do if you can't see or hear the guards. Spirits patrolling the warehouse will catch him unaware, and on top of this they they'll be flying above most cover.

You need a projecting mage along to handle spirits, or give him the ability to see astrally.

Exactly, if you are aware of the spirit and knows where it is, you have a better chance of hiding from it. But, if you are walking blind (without astral perception) you would have a severe penalty to hide from spirits. That's why I was thinking of buying a trained temu for my ninja character, but my GM (who won't let us have fun) said I would find none in Denver to buy...

[DireRadiant]

Either way, you still have to compare this to sneaking past invisible guards. When you use infiltration, you hear or see patrols, hide, move when they're out of sight or looking the other way, etc., stuff you can't do if you can't see or hear the guards. Spirits patrolling the warehouse will catch him unaware, and on top of this they they'll be flying above most cover.

You need a projecting mage along to handle spirits, or give him the ability to see astrally.

Fundamentally when Infiltrating against any kind of sensors, magical, technological or mundane, if you are penalizing the Infiltrator for not knowing where the sensors are, this is something that is done equally for all types. There's nothing specifically different about hiding from Assensing versus not knowing where cameras or guards are. (Though you are more likely to know where guards and cameras might be.)

Note that the likelihood of detecting the locations of sensors, and thus avoiding the penalty, is going to be higher in the case of a mundane Infiltrator(Though there are cool toys that let mundanes detect astral presences). All of this is only if you as a GM choose to apply these penalties in those conditions.

[WalksWithWiFi]

I think the biggest question i still have is why bitch slap the 'ninja' character because he was trying to watch his friends back?
on to the last few posts about modifiers to see the infiltrating characters-
i am pretty sure a skilled infiltrator knows to hide his presence as he goes along-
mundane objects appear as structures that even on the astral are not visible.
Also, spirits, on average, have a pretty good chance at assensing the target.
skills=force. That assensing pool can get to 10 easy.
Regardless, its your game, if you wanna slap the infiltrator with modifiers for astral entities seeing him, go for poop.

[Draco Strife]

I appreciate the input guys. This really has been helpful.

Note that the likelihood of detecting the locations of sensors, and thus avoiding the penalty, is going to be higher in the case of a mundane Infiltrator(Though there are cool toys that let mundanes detect astral presences).

Which toys are you referring to exactly?

You need a projecting mage along to handle spirits, or give him the ability to see astrally.

Our group has two, and he knows of what they're capable of. So he'll definitely need to plan out accordingly with his teammates about anything going on in the astral.

That's why I was thinking of buying a trained temu for my ninja character, but my GM (who won't let us have fun) said I would find none in Denver to buy...

Denver, eh? I'm sure if you ask Ghostwalker nicely...

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I appreciate the input guys. This really has been helpful.
Which toys are you referring to exactly?

I know of two "easy" ways a mundane can detect astral presence:

1- Tempo: it is a bioengineered Awakened drug (BAD) that allows one to assence. HIGHLY addictive, you can find all about it on Ghost Cartels.
2- Get a temu. A Temu is an Awakened vervet monkey that is dual-natured. When they notice an astral presence they start to scream and run away, but you can train it to keep quiet and point to you where the spirit is.
Each one has its own drawbacks.

[Garou]

Exactly, if you are aware of the spirit and knows where it is, you have a better chance of hiding from it. But, if you are walking blind (without astral perception) you would have a severe penalty to hide from spirits. That's why I was thinking of buying a trained temu for my ninja character, but my GM (who won't let us have fun) said I would find none in Denver to buy...

Sure, because a jumping screaming monkey is a VERY discreet addition to a run. Specially in Denver, the most free-spirit active city in the whole NA territory.

Did i mention Shinobi started to plot with the other players that he also wanted a MINI RUTHENIUM OUTFIT for his pet Temu Monkey?

LOL.

Oh, by the way, being a dual natured creature, the Temu will fall unconscious every time it cannot penetrate an astral barrier, and warn the barrier creator if he manages to do it. Being Astral Barriers, something very common whenever a resident mage is assigned to be, i don't think a Temu is such a great addition. Ruthenium Coated or Not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Fundamentally when Infiltrating against any kind of sensors, magical, technological or mundane, if you are penalizing the Infiltrator for not knowing where the sensors are, this is something that is done equally for all types. There's nothing specifically different about hiding from Assensing versus not knowing where cameras or guards are. (Though you are more likely to know where guards and cameras might be.)

Note that the likelihood of detecting the locations of sensors, and thus avoiding the penalty, is going to be higher in the case of a mundane Infiltrator(Though there are cool toys that let mundanes detect astral presences). All of this is only if you as a GM choose to apply these penalties in those conditions.

The problem is, a mundane can have a lot of theoretical knowledge of how the astral plane behaves, but in the end, he is walking in blind.
Yes, if an infiltrator character doesn't know there is movement detector on a corridor, he might trigger it while if he knew there was one, he would take the right procedures to avoid triggering it. The same works for spirits, if you don't know where they are, you will have a bad time trying to bypass them.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Sure, because a jumping screaming monkey is a VERY discreet addition to a run. Specially in Denver, the most free-spirit active city in the whole NA territory.

Did i mention Shinobi started to plot with the other players that he also wanted a MINI RUTHENIUM OUTFIT for his pet Temu Monkey?

LOL.

Oh, by the way, being a dual natured creature, the Temu will fall unconscious every time it cannot penetrate an astral barrier, and warn the barrier creator if he manages to do it. Being Astral Barriers, something very common whenever a resident mage is assigned to be, i don't think a Temu is such a great addition. Ruthenium Coated or Not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Like I said, a TRAINED monkey would learn to be quiet all the time. Also, Space Ghost had such a monkey with a ruthenium coat, why can't I have one too?

[Garou]

Because Space Ghost ended up a fat , frustrated man that runs an interview TV show? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DireRadiant]

Which toys are you referring to exactly?

Check out the Manatech section in Arsenal. Esprit “Petite Brume” Grenade, GloWands, Leeches, Lucifer Lamps for example.

The fact that mundanes have access to manufactured goods that impact astral senses might possibly be an indicator that it is in fact possible for mundanes to have some little tiny bit of knowledge and capability of how to affect Assensing tests with their infiltrations skills. But if people want to allow magic to be the all powerful stick of doom that no mundane can resist, that's up to them.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Meh, finding a Temu monkey shouldn't be that hard, just insanely expensive. I can think of a few ways to do it off the top of my head.

[Warlordtheft]

The problem is, a mundane can have a lot of theoretical knowledge of how the astral plane behaves, but in the end, he is walking in blind.
Yes, if an infiltrator character doesn't know there is movement detector on a corridor, he might trigger it while if he knew there was one, he would take the right procedures to avoid triggering it. The same works for spirits, if you don't know where they are, you will have a bad time trying to bypass them.

You can run it that way. However, I asssume that since the astral is a reflection of the physical, that a mundane hiding in the physical would be as effective as on the astral. Depending on the spirits instructions, they might be only looking for astral intrusion. Hiding behind a box of crates, works both on the astral and physical. The other item is that a spirit would have to know a person on the physical plane is not supposed to be there. To strict on intrusion for physical and mundanes, you'll get a false alarm whenever a pizza delivery guy or devil rat shows up.

[Garou]

You can run it that way. However, I asssume that since the astral is a reflection of the physical, that a mundane hiding in the physical would be as effective as on the material. Depending on the spirits instructions, they might be only looking for astral intrusion. Hiding behind a box of crates, works both on the astral and physical. The other item is that a spirit would have to know a person on the physical plane is not supposed to be there. To strict on intrusion for physical and mundanes, you'll get a false alarm whenever a pizza delivery guy or devil rat shows up.

Yes, it would indeed be run like that. But people who have enough resources to hire mages also deploy them only on sensitive places, where there is no such thing as a "i was just passing by" kind of encounter. And Spirits with Force 6 have, for all intents and purposes, Logic 6 and Intuition 6, which makes them very smart, even if completely alien. Or else there would be no need of magical vigilance on the physical, or it would not be possible.

For an example: A corporation could create a system on it's highly secure areas where assigned workers would have, not only a magloc passkey, but a vial of dual natured bacteria. The spirits would report on any person passing that had that marking on their astral forms: Others would be reported on sight.

On other example: There was a complex that had only ghouls working on it. Therefore, the Resident Spirits were warned to only warn of non-awakened, non ghoul infiltrators.

Of course they could hire a ghoul to infiltrate, but, damn, that would be SO hard to find that i woud give them the run if they managed to do it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rystefn]

I don't recall the OP saying that the ninja was spotted by Force 6 spirits. There's a world of difference between hiring on a mage capable summoning Force 6 Spirits to watch the door and hiring a street mage calling Force 3 spirits. More to the point. Hiding behind a crate is equally effective against a Force 6 spirit as it is against a person, still... Neither one can see through the crate.

[Garou]

I don't recall the OP saying that the ninja was spotted by Force 6 spirits. There's a world of difference between hiring on a mage capable summoning Force 6 Spirits to watch the door and hiring a street mage calling Force 3 spirits. More to the point. Hiding behind a crate is equally effective against a Force 6 spirit as it is against a person, still... Neither one can see through the crate.

The Force 6 part was just for an example. At Force 3 or 4, they are intelligent enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And if you don't know where the spirits are, the infiltrator cannot really know if they are BEHIND the crate or in front of it, according to the position of the spirit. And even that might change. Let me point out one thing. If a street mage asks a spirit to patrol a warehouse, Every combat turn, the spirit makes 6 perception tests in 6 different places that can be very different from each other. (Observe in Detail is a simple action, and Spirits have 3 Initiative passes on the astral space). They also have a "Walking" Rate that is really fast, but it's normal stepping for the spirit. So, yes it is hard to hide from them if they are there. And most spirits can fly, even if not very high, so they can see some really awkward angles. Spirits aren't like cameras. They are not necessarily stationary.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Meh, finding a Temu monkey shouldn't be that hard, just insanely expensive. I can think of a few ways to do it off the top of my head.

Agreed, and I was willing to pay the money, but whatever...

You can run it that way. However, I asssume that since the astral is a reflection of the physical, that a mundane hiding in the physical would be as effective as on the astral. Depending on the spirits instructions, they might be only looking for astral intrusion. Hiding behind a box of crates, works both on the astral and physical. The other item is that a spirit would have to know a person on the physical plane is not supposed to be there. To strict on intrusion for physical and mundanes, you'll get a false alarm whenever a pizza delivery guy or devil rat shows up.

Well sure. But let me give you an example. There is a building with a big outdoors area around it. Any people going to the building will do it by car (which means they can keep the windows closed and spirits will have no LoS. Then the spirits can be ordered to report and follow any metahuman soul they detect and wait next orders from the on-call mage.