Sneaking vs. Magic, The plight of a ninja Shadowrunner Options

[Ascalaphus]

Something like Vampire the Masquerade's discipline of Obfuscate.. you send out a low-level psychic impulse to ignore that the character is there. The eyes see him, but the mind doesn't. (Doesn't work against cameras!) It would likely also cover people loking at it's mana signature.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Compare that against the salary of multiple guards, factoring in sick leave, annual leave, training, 401k/Super/company benefits, etc, against the number of drones, factoring down time for spares/replacements, estimated maintenance cost, it could still be cheaper.

Not when hackers start to pwn your compound - and after a while, people won't come for the stuff you protect: They'll steal the drones.

[Ascalaphus]

There is no cheap security that can stop a team of professional shadowrunners, or thieves for that matter. When you get around the 400BP and a team of 5 with mages and hackers/TMs, only extreme measures will stop you.


Most security is intended to protect non-critical facilities; 5K surveillance drones are pretty good for those. An expert hacker could steal them, but a common burglar doesn't have a chance of ever finding it (good luck with -10 to your Perception, plus whatever the drone succeeds in getting on a hiding test). Expert hackers can earn more money elsewhere than by stealing 5K drones (or else the GM is really not paying enough; why would hackers do anything risky if there's easy money?)


For a critical facility, security is based on diversity and redundancy. While any character can deal with some methods of security, only an efficient, cooperating and skilled team can deal with both spirits, drones, defensive landscaping, guards and booby-trapping.


(Besides, hard-to-hack drones are a real possibility. Step one: wireless inhibiting coating on the building to force the hacker to come inside. Two: motion sensors at all entry points, which give an alert whenever someone enters the "offline zone", before they have a chance to hack the system. Three: drones maintain radio silence unless they're sounding an alert, making them very hard to find. Four: if any drone, sensor or system detects a Scanning attempt to locate hiden nodes, an alarm is given. Five: Firewalls, IC, Spiders. Six: redundancy - if any drone detects another drone violating protocol, an alert is given. Seven: do not put all drones in the same network, so every group must be hacked separately. Eight: keep your security protocols secret, and alter them regularly to make sure leaks don't stay valuable for long. Nine: make sure your security hackers are really trustworthy.)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Nine: make sure your security hackers are really trustworthy.)

As always, the weakest link is always human resources (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

good luck with -10 to your Perception

..where did you get that number from?

[Orcus Blackweath...]

..where did you get that number from?

Micro drone -6
Ruthenium Polymer -4

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Micro drone -6

That's the size mod to attack it. It's not a vision mod. Even the concealability modifier only comes into play when carrying int, you know, in your pocket.

And of course, not being able to see at all is a -6 mod. So no, no vision mods worse than that.

[The Jopp]

As always, the weakest link is always human resources (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Yes, because trusting your artifcial AI resources are so much safer - at least they don't have any ulterior human motives (most of the time..)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

That's the size mod to attack it. It's not a vision mod. Even the concealability modifier only comes into play when carrying int, you know, in your pocket.

And of course, not being able to see at all is a -6 mod. So no, no vision mods worse than that.

AFB right now, but I'm almost sure that the same penalties to attack also apply to visual perception.

[Lansdren]

Maybe I am misunderstanding the RAI but if the infiltration skill is supposed to cover being able to plan a approch taking into account possible things that might be there and in this I'm mostly thinking cameras and sensors but spirits arnt that much difference particually if we are talking someone with a skill of 5-6 which is professional level skills, level 1 might only be able to handle blatently spotable cameras or people but the stone cold professional should have the mindset that thinks "if it was me I would put a sensor in that corner covering that side of the room" thus being less liable to be suprised

[Rotbart van Dain...]

AFB right now, but I'm almost sure that the same penalties to attack also apply to visual perception.

Even if they do - if you poke your eyes out, you are at -6.

The real issue is that small things have a high threshold to notice - but by RAW wisdom, thresholds don't apply to opposed tests. Which is easily fixed by a house rule, though.

[Ascalaphus]

That's the size mod to attack it. It's not a vision mod. Even the concealability modifier only comes into play when carrying int, you know, in your pocket.

And of course, not being able to see at all is a -6 mod. So no, no vision mods worse than that.

Sorry, my mistake. It should be this:

Perception Threshold (Micro): 4
Ruthenium: -4 dice
.. for an independently ranging microdrone.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Sorry, my mistake. It should be this:

Perception Threshold (Micro): 4

The real issue is that small things have a high threshold to notice - but by RAW wisdom, thresholds don't apply to opposed tests.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Maybe I am misunderstanding the RAI but if the infiltration skill is supposed to cover being able to plan a approch taking into account possible things that might be there and in this I'm mostly thinking cameras and sensors but spirits arnt that much difference particually if we are talking someone with a skill of 5-6 which is professional level skills, level 1 might only be able to handle blatently spotable cameras or people but the stone cold professional should have the mindset that thinks "if it was me I would put a sensor in that corner covering that side of the room" thus being less liable to be suprised

I was also thinking along these lines as well.

[sn0mm1s]

Maybe I am misunderstanding the RAI but if the infiltration skill is supposed to cover being able to plan a approch taking into account possible things that might be there and in this I'm mostly thinking cameras and sensors but spirits arnt that much difference particually if we are talking someone with a skill of 5-6 which is professional level skills, level 1 might only be able to handle blatently spotable cameras or people but the stone cold professional should have the mindset that thinks "if it was me I would put a sensor in that corner covering that side of the room" thus being less liable to be suprised

I agree, but how would one plan for an invisible, intelligent, camera that flies around at about 75 MPH? Really, I don't understand the problem with infiltration having its limits. AFAIK, no one has stolen Coke's formula or KFC's herbs and spices list, much less explored something like Area 52. Magic has an advantage over mundane sneaking... is that really that big of a deal? If someone has the resources for magical surveillance then maybe bringing someone magical would be prudent - the GM may hint about this just on a successful roll.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I agree, but how would one plan for an invisible, intelligent, camera that flies around at about 75 MPH?

Sounds like drones.

Magic has an advantage over mundane sneaking... is that really that big of a deal?

It would be a big deal, if it weren't wrong.

[tagz]

Back to the original topic for a moment.

I wouldn't apply negatives to a sneaking test for unknown presences.

Lets say a character wants to sneak across a warehouse. He thinks it's empty, but he is practicing and motivated to do it as silently as possible. If someone came in a minute before and stood around without him knowing would it change how silently he moves? How would it change how quickly he darts between boxes? Why should HIS roll be changed when his actions are unaffected?

The PC's attempt should not be modified negatively because he doesn't know something is there. On the other hand, if he KNOWS that there is a camera, spirit, person, etc there, he might perform BETTER with that knowledge. A small bonus might be made if the sneaker is aware of enough of the security.

His roll should be only be modified by things that directly effect with his ability to perform the action. A unknown security presence doesn't do that, since that presence makes it's own test in order to detect him.

My ability to see you doesn't effect your ability to sneak. Even if I have an overwhelming advantage you sneak just as well, I just see better then you're able to sneak.

People are confusing who should be getting the modifiers.

[sn0mm1s]

Sounds like drones.

It would be a big deal, if it weren't wrong.

Not really, a microdrone isn't flying around anywhere close to the same speed as a spirit. Just going off of SR4A (I don't feel like searching each book for special drones). A spirit has a speed of 100 with no modifiers - and is completely invisible. You don't even get to look for it unless it passes through you. A microdrone moves at 10 and can still be spotted. Only small and medium size drones can move as fast as a spirit (but you still have to deal with acceleration) and those drones actually give you a bonus to spot them due to their size - not to mention it would be hard to miss something the size of a toaster flying around inside a building, or hallway - not so with a spirit.

[sn0mm1s]

Back to the original topic for a moment.

I wouldn't apply negatives to a sneaking test for unknown presences.

Lets say a character wants to sneak across a warehouse. He thinks it's empty, but he is practicing and motivated to do it as silently as possible. If someone came in a minute before and stood around without him knowing would it change how silently he moves? How would it change how quickly he darts between boxes? Why should HIS roll be changed when his actions are unaffected?

The PC's attempt should not be modified negatively because he doesn't know something is there. On the other hand, if he KNOWS that there is a camera, spirit, person, etc there, he might perform BETTER with that knowledge. A small bonus might be made if the sneaker is aware of enough of the security.

His roll should be only be modified by things that directly effect with his ability to perform the action. A unknown security presence doesn't do that, since that presence makes it's own test in order to detect him.

My ability to see you doesn't effect your ability to sneak. Even if I have an overwhelming advantage you sneak just as well, I just see better then you're able to sneak.

People are confusing who should be getting the modifiers.

That just doesn't make sense though.

Suppose an alert guard is standing guarding at door at the end of a long hallway. You are trying to get to that door.
Are you going to move down the hallway while the guard is there? No.
Why not? Because no matter what your infiltration roll that guard will see another person moving down the long hallway.

Now, suppose a spirit is there - completely invisible.
Are you going to move down the hallway? My guess would be yes.
Are you going to be spotted? Yes.

Your actions are not the same based on whether or not you are aware of something. While the person sneaking around may not get negative modifiers the person perceiving pretty much gets an automatically successful opposed roll.

[RedeemerofOgar]

Magic has an advantage over mundane sneaking... is that really that big of a deal? If someone has the resources for magical surveillance then maybe bringing someone magical would be prudent - the GM may hint about this just on a successful roll.

And, pray tell, what do you believe this extra magical person does for the intended sneaking? We have already determined that Concealment is the only magic that affects astral perception, so if Infiltration does not work against astral perception at all, then concealment by itself isn't going to keep you hidden from a bound spirit of reasonable force (I'd expect a 4 or 5). Much lower than 4 and the spirit isn't even an issue.

[tagz]

That just doesn't make sense though.

Suppose an alert guard is standing guarding at door at the end of a long hallway. You are trying to get to that door.
Are you going to move down the hallway while the guard is there? No.
Why not? Because no matter what your infiltration roll that guard will see another person moving down the long hallway.

Now, suppose a spirit is there - completely invisible.
Are you going to move down the hallway? My guess would be yes.
Are you going to be spotted? Yes.

Your actions are not the same based on whether or not you are aware of something. While the person sneaking around may not get negative modifiers the person perceiving pretty much gets an automatically successful opposed roll.

Yeap, you just summarized my post and disagreed.

So yes, if he knows the guard is there his action changes. He could potentally get a bonus or not.

He doesn't know the spirit is there and sneaks by. Well, two things can happen. The GM can rule that the ninja is obvious to the spirit in which the stealth roll is negated entirely, or the GM can rule that the spirit might be looking the other way, might not know the aura isn't from a guard, isn't paying total attention, etc and would have to make a perception check.

Both results doesn't apply a negative to the ninja's sneak. One is just determining that it doesn't matter. Like making a balance test on a solid floor, cause a mage made an illusion of it being a tightrope over a pit. The PC doesn't know the test is meaningless, but still makes the test and performs well or poorly regardless if the test was meaningless or not.

[sn0mm1s]

And, pray tell, what do you believe this extra magical person does for the intended sneaking? We have already determined that Concealment is the only magic that affects astral perception, so if Infiltration does not work against astral perception at all, then concealment by itself isn't going to keep you hidden from a bound spirit of reasonable force (I'd expect a 4 or 5). Much lower than 4 and the spirit isn't even an issue.

Oh, all sorts of stuff:

1) Someone astrally perceiving could just say "Its impossible to sneak past them - there are too many spirits" so you don't get seen in the first place.
2) The person perceiving could say "They seem to follow a pattern you have X amount of time after they leave/move on."
3) The person could say "We can't sneak in, but we might be able to pass as a guard."
4) The mage may decide that they need to see another mage go into/out of the building and use Flexible Signature to match their Astral Signature.

I guess it depends how challenging you want your game to be.

[WalksWithWiFi]

oh boy...another person on this thread concluding that magic=omnivision.

and edit-i agree with Tagz assessment-
regardless,
it still seems that we will have this argument regardless, some who believe those trained in
infiltration can try to hide from anyone, regardless of what plane they are on, and the others
who believe magicians/those with astral perception have the ability to just shit on another persons ability
to play their character how it was intended.
Their table, their rules.

[sn0mm1s]

Yeap, you just summarized my post and disagreed.

So yes, if he knows the guard is there his action changes. He could potentally get a bonus or not.

He doesn't know the spirit is there and sneaks by. Well, two things can happen. The GM can rule that the ninja is obvious to the spirit in which the stealth roll is negated entirely, or the GM can rule that the spirit might be looking the other way, might not know the aura isn't from a guard, isn't paying total attention, etc and would have to make a perception check.

Both results doesn't apply a negative to the ninja's sneak. One is just determining that it doesn't matter. Like making a balance test on a solid floor, cause a mage made an illusion of it being a tightrope over a pit. The PC doesn't know the test is meaningless, but still makes the test and performs well or poorly regardless if the test was meaningless or not.

Maybe my point wasn't clear. Some things just are impossible - no matter what your dice pool is. Not everything deserves an opposed roll. By saying "the steath roll is negated entirely" you are basically saying the ninja gets a -X modifier where X is their dice pool depending on the situation.

[sn0mm1s]

oh boy...another person on this thread concluding that magic=omnivision.

Magic isn't omniscient no more than infiltration always works against everything no matter the situation.