Sneaking vs. Magic, The plight of a ninja Shadowrunner Options

[hahnsoo]

By RAW, the sneaker gets the same dice pool as they do for normal Infiltration tests. There are no penalties or positive dice pool modifiers listed on any table for Infiltration (maybe there are... can you come up with ANY reference for this?). There are pieces of gear and adept powers that ADD to Infiltration checks (like reflex recorders), but I don't know of any penalties.

In the case of "not being able to see the perceiver", there are a lot of analogies to stealthing through other invisible sensors and detection. Just because it is "magic" doesn't mean you apply special penalties to the Infiltration test. If anything, the Infiltration check is the same, and the Perception test (in the case of Astral Perception, Assensing) is the test that is modified. What you are supposed to do is apply dice pool penalties and bonuses to the entity using Perception. In the case of Astral Perception, you are allowed to use the appropriate astral visibility table in Street Magic.

Line of Sight still blocks aural visibility, and this is true whether you are talking about shadows from the physical plane (like a wall) or living auras. A person hiding behind a crate CANNOT be read by astral perception, period. Brightness doesn't matter.

[WalksWithWiFi]

pg 114 Street Magic, left column, bottom paragraph.
I would assume that pretty much covers any thought that an infiltrators aura could not be
concealed to an astral observer.
I am too lazy to type it out, excuse me on that.

Also, Falconer, once again, it says nowhere in the 'fluff' portion or otherwise that normal auras,
once again, not astral presences, glow like freakin lightbulbs.

I think every other poster has listed the several sources, etc.
For some reason you are hanging on to this misguided belief that astral perception is the omnivision.

edit: also, now that i am not on my ipod, i just wanted to add this-

Remember infiltration isn't just the ninja method... there's other methods as well. For example, disguising yourself as an employee and hiding in plain sight.

Actually, infiltration and Disguise are two different skills.

[Rystefn]

I stand by my assertion. Read street magic. Earth (Gaia) < cloud of bacteria (dim glow) < plants < non-sapient critters (like rats) < sapient critters (metahumans) < active astral forms (spells, spirits, dual-natured and projectors).

The two brightest things on that list are active astral and sapient creatures (metahumans).

How bright? Show me a rule that says "Sapient critter, including metahumans shine on the astral equal to a flashlight" or something, and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, my chemlight interpretation is equally valid.

I still believe the GM did it correctly... the ninja didn't consult w/ his magical support... and he got ratted out by some VERY expensive magical security. No harm was done to the player whatsoever except a little egg on his face and a good learning lesson.

Yes, he learned his GM believes that magic should trump all in every circumstance, and he should have played a mage.

Muspellheimr:
I disagree with what you wrote, ONLY in that the infiltrator has no idea where the astral spirits are and when. He can time to sneak past guards. Use his own perception and kit to rat out technological observers.

Can he time it to sneak past fiber-optic mini-cameras? No, but Infiltration skill works perfectly well against those, right?

He has no way to hide or disguise himself from astral though. (including bonus dice from chameleon suit and other equipment). His essence has nothing to do with his astral visibility as some suggest. That's what I mean by a massive penalty, he can't use the same pile of dice he does for a normal infiltration attempt.

He has plenty of ways to hide in the astral. crouching between crates and the wall. Equally effective against Perception and Astral Perception.

You don't answer the point... I never said he couldn't roll, just that he wouldn't get his full dice pool of equipment, and he'd have to change his actions accordingly. Also actions he'd take like 'hiding in the shadows' to avoid a mundane guard only make him stand out more on the astral... as he stands out more in the dark corner in astral the exact opposite of his intended result.

Right, chameleon suit wouldn't work... but the skill should work perfectly well. Shadows, by the way, don't work that way on the Astral. The sun isn't shining down, nor are the light bulbs in the warehouse. These are shadowy reflections and no more. In fact, there's no way to tell from the Astral whether the lights are on or off. The whole of the Astral plane is light more or less uniformly aside from auras and Astral entities, such as spirits. I don't recall reading anywhere that this light casts shadows, either, now that I think on it.

What if we replace assensing w/ UWB radar? How is he aware it's being used, or he's being observed through walls. Does he still complain that he doesn't get his chameleon suit and other tech goodies against a non-visual sensor?

He's not complaining about not getting his tech goodies. He's complaining about his skill being completely useless. At least the UWB radar actually states that it can see through walls. There's nowhere in the books that sys, or even implies, that Infiltration skill doesn't work on Astral perceivers.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Ok, after a lot of consideration I realized that Solid Snake was RIGHT ALL ALONG.
You just need a cardboard box with you all the time. That way, you beat mundane and astral perception at the same time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[WalksWithWiFi]

Ok, after a lot of consideration I realized that Solid Snake was RIGHT ALL ALONG.
You just need a cardboard box with you all the time. That way, you beat mundane and astral perception at the same time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

quoted for the awesomeness of this post

also, i wish we could pen in an infiltration specialization of "astral perception" just to make Falconers head explode.

[graymagiker]

pg 114 Street Magic, left column, bottom paragraph.

I am not to lazy to type it out.

Determining cover works the same way on the astral plane as it does in the physical world (see pp 140-141 SR4). Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting.

Emphasis mine.

[Inane Imp]

quoted for the awesomeness of this post

also, i wish we could pen in an infiltration specialization of "astral perception" just to make Falconers head explode.

Why would you need to pen it in, you can already specialize in Infiltration by detection method. Guess what 'Astral' is a detection method. Therefore by RAW you can have Infiltration (Astral) even as a mundane.

RP wise, to train for it one would assume you'd have to spend a lot of time trying to hide from friendly Spirits though. Actually, that's a pretty cool training montage right there and could be something your character could benefit by doing; getting his team mate Shamans to assist by providing the spirits.

Also, Falconer points out that Mages are forced to spend vast BPs/Karma on getting both Assessing and Perception. This is because they do two different things. Astral Perception is the ability to spot astral forms in the first place; Assensing is the ability to tell things about them that you can't tell normally. In a similar way to Perception letting you see a person, but Judge Intentions, or say a Cyberware scanner, allows you to find out things about them they you wouldn't be able to tell normally.

[The Jake]

Which is RAW.

Coming from you, that about ends the debate on this thread as far as I'm concerned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

- J.

[mortimerwagstaff]

I registered here in part in hopes to be included in a run, but for the most part to add my two cents to this rather interesting topic. Quoting from the 20th anniversary rulebook:

"In some cases this may mean certain
game mechanics are structured more for ease of play or game balance
than to reflect how things actually work."

"these rules sometimes reflect “creative license,” but often they have to abstract
things we take for granted in daily life."

"These rules are not meant to be a direct copy of how things really work—
they can’t be. We try to approximate conditions and situations in
reality as much as possible, but that can only go so far. That being
said, we urge you to appreciate the rules in Shadowrun for what
they are and not stress out when they don’t simulate real life perfectly
or fail to take into account certain conditions or factors."

Anyway, as I see it, I agree with what seemed to me to be the majority in that you should not substantially penalize a stealther for trying to hide from spirits. The major points brought up that I thought were pertinent were: 'Would you penalize a stealther the same amount for a hidden fiberoptic camera?'

I agree that he should not get the bonus for RPC but to give him a -8 dice pool just because he can't see the opponent? I thought it was pretty clear that an astral being has to have LINE OF SIGHT to target an opponent, such as to cast a spell on him. If I recall properly, magicians even suffer dice pool penalties if the target has partial cover, even though he only needs to SEE the target to cast on it (whether or not he is astrally perceiving).

This suggests to me, that cover would interfere with not only spellcasting, but the visibility of auras. Since basically the mage/shaman simply has to see the aura of the target to cast on him, right? Hence the optical visibility requirement?

Given the IMPLICITLY STATED note that the rules aren't 100% real world equivalent, and the CANONIZED difficulties in lining up a target's aura behind cover... NOT TO MENTION the point that has already been brought up by other players which says, in essence: 'if magic was meant to trump everything else, it would be more apparent in the rules'

In addition, I agree with the viewpoints that state, this guy has grown up in a time when magic has been prevalent for DECADES. And he has TWO mages on his team who can't give him pointers on how to avoid being seen by spirits? I don't buy it.

DISREGARDING ALL THAT, if you STILL don't buy any of the above arguments, consider this.... if astral surveillance was SO much of a trump card in regards to physical stealth, a spell would have HAD to have been created to negate this. Just think... desert wars, actual wars, militaries, corpsec... if a single spirit is able to point out an unlimited number of snipers or guerillas on the battlefield, a corp or government would have no choice but to come up with a spell to negate this. So if you are so dead set on the fact that auras stick out like a sore thumb to any sort of astral perception, AT LEAST make a spell available that is the equivalent to astral stealth for a mundane metahuman. Because, if you're that inclined towards realism, it's quite unrealistic to assume that no countermeasures have ever been conceived against it.

Sorry for the short novel, but I just felt that A) it is unfair to frag an otherwise feasible runner this way and B) Dude's argument reeks of 'I don't want you to ruin my plans' rather than 'I'm looking at this from an objective point of view'.

/end rant.

This post has been edited by mortimerwagstaff: Jan 30 2010, 01:51 PM

[Falconer]

Also, Falconer points out that Mages are forced to spend vast BPs/Karma on getting both Assessing and Perception. This is because they do two different things. Astral Perception is the ability to spot astral forms in the first place; Assensing is the ability to tell things about them that you can't tell normally. In a similar way to Perception letting you see a person, but Judge Intentions, or say a Cyberware scanner, allows you to find out things about them they you wouldn't be able to tell normally.

Not quite correct... assensing replaces perception for all uses while astrally perceiving. (SR4a p191)


Since people challenge me to back up my assertion... I'm not going to quote the first 5 PARAGRAPHS of SR4a p191.

I will quote this much from street magic p112
The Mirror World
"The astral plane is a dreamlike realm shaped by eddying flows of mana, the glow of life and the natural world, and the echoes of emotion."

"Unlike the dull gray shadows of physical objects, the reflections of living and magical things glow brightly in the astral."
... more complex forms... "While collections of microbes may just cast a hazy glow in astral space, metahuman auras flicker and dance with layers of emotion and composition." ... "clothes and other non-living objects are often outshone by the brightness of the wearer’s aura"
p114
"The ideal conditions for astral visibility are high contrast: when a single aura stands out starkly against a backdrop of shadows, lit only by the soft glow of the Earth."

What do we know about the astral, life & magic are the sources of illumination for astral perception. All those sources say that they glow. They also state that less complex life forms glow dimly while more complex forms glow brightly w/ lots of detail. The ninja is trying to do the equivalent of sneaking in while wearing a suit made of blinking xmas tree lights.


When that spirit assenses the ninja w/ 1 hit, he doesn't only know he's there. He can also tell his emotional state... Guard... bored. Ninja... on high alert, edgy, apprehensive.


My primary reason for disagreement here is that the methods/tactics used for infiltrating against mundane/technological systems are different than those you'd use against an astral one. In a barren area (warehouse, +1), devoid of life (+2) that's +3 to the astral perception check... plus character doesn't get all his gear. (he still got 5 hits on the infiltration check w/o all his dice?!)... how exactly does the character roll *1* check w/ different dice pools against everything. How exactly does the GM not tip his hand and tell the character how many dice to roll telling out of character information about exactly what is in the area?


I don't disagree the skill works, or that the character can attempt it. I just disagree that in this case, the character had what he said he had. (5 hits on an infiltration check... which was probably rolled w/ all his eqiupment bonuses). And that infiltrating against astral opposition is a good deal harder, because you need to hide from BOTH the mundane sensors/guards AND the astral observers which greatly reduces your available options of where to go, and how you sneak through.


Also, I reiiterate, this kind of magical security isn't the norm. Not an everyday occurance. The fact that a warehouse has magical security should send up a warning flare that there's something important there. (not just paying a magician to setup a ward... but multiple patroling spirits and a security mage 24/7). That's a major ongoing operational cost.

[Telion]

Astral and perceiving entities as well as active foci are lightbulbs on the astral plane. Masking can change the aura so it no longer sticks out, along with the foci on that person.
Mundanes however may have an aura, but its not something that would stick out.

[Falconer]

So you're saying a mage is a higher more complex life form than a mundane ;P.

I agree with you active astral forms stand out more... but the books make it fairly clear complex living beings have distinctive auras which stand out and glow more brightly. And in say a crowd of people, it can be very hard to discern one from another, or an astral form hiding in the crowd.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'd be hesitent... but I might allow him to spend some karma on latent awakening if it's that much of an issue to him. But force him to spend karma on astral perception as his first ability. (and the skills which go with it). If he's heavily cybered I might make him pay extra (since he didn't buy up his magic score properly). Not RAW, but fair to the adepts who had to pay for their magic loss due to enhancements.

Just for clarification... You would PEWNALIZE someone with Latent Awakening who actually had cyberware/bioware upon their awakening, apart from the already heavy penalty of only having a single point of magic and no magical skill whatsoever?

Wow... Pretty harsh...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

When that spirit assenses the ninja w/ 1 hit, he doesn't only know he's there. He can also tell his emotional state... Guard... bored. Ninja... on high alert, edgy, apprehensive.

Because as we all know, Guards are always bored and are never on high alert, edgy or apprehensive... about anything... ever...

Do you really believe that Falconer?

Keep the Faith

[Falconer]

Just for clarification... You would PEWNALIZE someone with Latent Awakening who actually had cyberware/bioware upon their awakening, apart from the already heavy penalty of only having a single point of magic and no magical skill whatsoever?

Wow... Pretty harsh...

Only because he didn't buy it in chargen. And it's being retconned in. Also because unlike a normal character he's almost assured to awaken... while someone who got it at chargen might never awaken at GM's option.


The way the quality works, he effectively pays 10 karma for it... when he 'awakens' his essence is ignored and the difference in cost between latent and adept is paid. Which is none, because it switches to adept. Now he has 1 magic ignoring all his essence reductions and the surcharge any actual adept out of chargen paid for for both bio/cyber + magic.

How would an adept in the game feel having spent say 30BP on magic, 5BP on the quality, and only have 1point magic + cyber/bio... compared to this guy who bitched and moaned got effectively the same thing for only 10karma.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Only because he didn't buy it in chargen. And it's being retconned in. Also because unlike a normal character he's almost assured to awaken... while someone who got it at chargen might never awaken at GM's option.


The way the quality works, he effectively pays 10 karma for it... when he 'awakens' his essence is ignored and the difference in cost between latent and adept is paid. Which is none, because it switches to adept. Now he has 1 magic ignoring all his essence reductions and the surcharge any actual adept out of chargen paid for for both bio/cyber + magic.

How would an adept in the game feel having spent say 30BP on magic, 5BP on the quality, and only have 1point magic + cyber/bio... compared to this guy who bitched and moaned got effectively the same thing for only 10karma.

So a NORMAL character that takes Latent Awakening in your game would most likely NOT awaken (at least according to the implications above)... Penalize your players much...

Players take qualities (and this option is a POSITIVE quality mind you) to see tham have an effect in game... Who cares how the character that started with it feels vs. the character that gets it in play... that was his choice to do so...

The Latent Awakening is not being RETCONNED... and NO, Essence is not being ignored... if the character has less essence than 1, he will NEVER awaken... so essence does matter... your paying the BP in Chargen to have a starting magic of 6 (say) just to lose it to cyber/bio implants is a balancing mechanic in character creation, not after... you get to start with more available power right away, rather than having to build it later... it is called a choice...

And Latent Awakening may be granting Astral Sight, a Spirit/Spell Knack, or even a Full Blown Magician Quality, or any other magically active choice... it is not always an Adept...

Keep the Faith

[Falconer]

Actually yes it is being retconned... latent awakening is not something I'd not generally allow a character to buy after chargen.

I have no problems w/ the quality itself. just the points should be spent up front. No more than any other quality... IMO you don't just make a character for RPG's, you talk w/ the GM and he says yes this fits my setting or no it doesn't. This is the same reason I have some minor issues w/ custom magical traditions... how exactly does it fit into the game world.


Though I had forgotten about the astral perception and spell spirit knack bits... that's also sick and twisted enough to consider in the twisting a wish spell sense.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually yes it is being retconned... latent awakening is not something I'd not generally allow a character to buy after chargen.

I have no problems w/ the quality itself. just the points should be spent up front. No more than any other quality... IMO you don't just make a character for RPG's, you talk w/ the GM and he says yes this fits my setting or no it doesn't. This is the same reason I have some minor issues w/ custom magical traditions... how exactly does it fit into the game world.

Though I had forgotten about the astral perception and spell spirit knack bits... that's also sick and twisted enough to consider in the twisting a wish spell sense.

Ahhh, I see your point about the Retconning... he is purchasing the Quality after the fact... again, I say so what, it is not restricted to creation only (Qualities that are so restricted say so in their description, and it is NOT included in the Description for Latent Awakening, at least as far as I could find)... so your dislike for purchasing it after chargen, while valid at your table, may not be valid at anyone else's table... and in fact is actually allowed by RAW.

AS for your arguemnts for what fits a game, that will differ from table to table and is not really the scope of this particular topic...

Keep the Faith

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Hey everyone. I got a player who had a major complaint about his character, a well-cybered out ninja...

...He wants to sneak in, so he rolls for infiltation (about 5 hits, he's really good at what he does). Stealth does not hide his aura from spirits, as any mage knows. Thankfully the Koshari, instead of blasting everyone in sight, politely tell the face to remove her comrade from the building. After doing so to an obviously upset ninja, the Koshari hand over the package to the face, and the runners leave...

Last evening my friend complains that any sucker who can cast magic missile will surely own him, and wants to put his points and well-earned karma into guns... In summary, he feels he cannot effectively play his role due to magic, when he still clearly has an advantage with his skill at infiltration and being-all around sneaky. He's being quite stubborn about it too, so that's why I come to you experienced runners here on Dumpshock.

How do I explain that stealth is one of the better skills to have in the game and how is magic not the "be all of end alls" in the sixth world? I know the corps and some crime elements (like the shamanic Koshari) like to hire magicians often so our ninja is going to deal with magic no matter what. How else do I explain why her team and her contacts are also important as well?

The previous discussion aside...

How long has he been playing? And this is the first time this situation came up? Let the whiner get some new skills. Sounds like his infiltration group is high enough anyway. Mr. Stealth Ninja should not be a one-trick pony anyway. Just try to convince him that there are still many places and times where his stealth skills will not be overcome by magical spotters. And he should learn to recognize when he is and isn't outclassed.

[Rand]

Sorry if this was covered already, I just couldn't slog through all the posts on this thread. I think this could be handled a few different ways:

First, just assume that in the Sixth World, the various skills like Infiltration are taught/learned with the full knowledge of spirits and are fully usable against them just as they are against hidden cameras and the like.

Second, the skill can be used, though at a negative die pool mod. (say 3-4) to reflect that hiding from something like a spirit or projecting mage is hard. This mod could be offset by the character using a knowledge skill that reflects how much they know about spirits and how they operate. This could be done as follows:

They roll the appropriate knowledge skill and count the successes. Each success offsets a single die penalty until either the penalty is zero or there are no more knowledge successes to use. The resulting die pool (which can NEVER be higher than the pre-modified die pool) is used for the skill. I think that this should be done whether they know the spirit is there or not, as their training just kicks in as they do their "thing."

[hahnsoo]

Sorry if this was covered already, I just couldn't slog through all the posts on this thread. I think this could be handled a few different ways:

First, just assume that in the Sixth World, the various skills like Infiltration are taught/learned with the full knowledge of spirits and are fully usable against them just as they are against hidden cameras and the like.

Second, the skill can be used, though at a negative die pool mod. (say 3-4) to reflect that hiding from something like a spirit or projecting mage is hard. This mod could be offset by the character using a knowledge skill that reflects how much they know about spirits and how they operate. This could be done as follows:

They roll the appropriate knowledge skill and count the successes. Each success offsets a single die penalty until either the penalty is zero or there are no more knowledge successes to use. The resulting die pool (which can NEVER be higher than the pre-modified die pool) is used for the skill. I think that this should be done whether they know the spirit is there or not, as their training just kicks in as they do their "thing."

The way that the GM handled it was slapping a -8 penalty on the guy, and that INCLUDED astral awareness training. I personally think that's excessive and unreasonable. I guess we should all start giving everyone a -8 penalty by default for stealth, since there's no way anyone can detect nano/micro-sensors without an E-sensing technomancer. Or a person who cannot be seen sitting behind a tinted-glass window across the street, for that matter.

Are there any RAW penalties against using Stealth skills (other than the usual injury mods)? All of the penalties from having inappropriate camo are positive modifiers on the Perception test rather than negative modifiers on the stealth test. Same with Traceless Walk (penalty to a Perception test rather than bonus to Stealth) and Chameleon Suits (penalty to Perception test). Body Paint/Olfactory Camo is a +1 die to Stealth Skill Group skills rather than a penalty to perception, but it is meant to stack with other forms of blending.

[DireRadiant]

Well, it does not work that way. As you can see in the Astral Perception Section of street magic, the modifiers to astral perception are basically based only in the amount of 'life forms' so to speak, in the area. It's easier, astraly, to move in the clear in a forest than to sneak in a dark alley, because your aura is clearly defined against the background.

I used a -6 penalty for non assensing stealth [the same modifier of shooting something you are not seeing, and assuming you had some training in astral evasion and stealth.] If you are doing that trying to ALSO avoid mundade onlookers, i rise that to -8. And i advise Shinobi to spend Edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Street Magic p 114

"Note that while these
modifiers replace some physical world perception modifiers
(such as the light level), other physical world modifiers still
apply."

In the paragraph explaining how to use that table. Along with a little bit later.

"Determining cover works the same way on the astral
plane as it does in the physical world (see pp. 140–141, SR4).
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and
insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting.
Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world
(like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.
Since there are no ranged weapons on the astral plane and spell
targeting depends on seeing your target, hiding behind physical
shadows works as well as hiding behind a vibrant aura."

The instructions on using the astral visibility modifiers lead me to conclude that physical Infiltration skill is perfectly valid against astral sense without penalizing a player for not being magical.

In addition, immediately following this table is "Though it is often referred to and experienced in visual
terms, it is not entirely the same as physical sight" which tends to make the "glowing in the astral dark" arguments a bit of a reach since the manner in which astral things are perceived do not map in the exact same way as the normal visual sense.

[Rand]

A -8 penalty is very excessive, especially when being effectively blind is only-6.

If we want to get completely realistic, the non-teched out or magiced out individual wouldn't have any hope to sneak past the security features of the Sixth World. But, of course, this is a game. Plus, like I mentioned before, we have to go with some assumption that the characters have grown up in the Sixth World environment and have a working knowledge (to a degree) of what to expect. Infiltration in the Middle Ages is different from Infiltration now, as now's Infiltration is different from that of the Sixth World. At least that I how I see it.

BTW: hansoo, I use the same G.K Chesteron quote for my sig on another board. You get it from Criminal Minds also? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Rand

[Smokeskin]

Are there any RAW penalties against using Stealth skills (other than the usual injury mods)? All of the penalties from having inappropriate camo are positive modifiers on the Perception test rather than negative modifiers on the stealth test. Same with Traceless Walk (penalty to a Perception test rather than bonus to Stealth) and Chameleon Suits (penalty to Perception test). Body Paint/Olfactory Camo is a +1 die to Stealth Skill Group skills rather than a penalty to perception, but it is meant to stack with other forms of blending.

Yeah, RAW doesn't say there's a difference between sneaking past two alert guards standing across a narrow corridor, and stealthing into a dock area with a single, bored minimum wage overseer. So that's how we play it, right?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Yeah, RAW doesn't say there's a difference between sneaking past two alert guards standing across a narrow corridor, and stealthing into a dock area with a single, bored minimum wage overseer.

Thats not the issue here - it's what happens if you swap out "guards" with "spirits" and "overseer" with "watcher".