Combat Rules for Large Firefights, Need some advice for creating rules for Large Firefights Options

[Bushw4cker]

Here is the scenario. 3 Shadowrunners are pinned down behind cover waiting for help to arrive in 5 minutes. There are 12 Yakuza (Professional Rating 3) Spraying bullets from behind vehicles. Using the standard rules for combat this would be 100 combat turns. (5min x 20 combat turns in min). A normal combat turn for my groups lasts about 10 minutes long, but sometimes they last twice that. Instead of dragging out one firefight for over 15 hours, I've been debating creating a house rule similar to Vehicle Chase Combat, that represents one minute of combat. Each combat round would last 15-60 seconds long as both groups spray bullets at each other. This is a list of goals I want to accomplish with this house rule:
1. Speed up combat when characters are fighting large group.
2. Put characters in situations where no shadowrunning team has encountered in my experience with game, running risk of running out of ammo.
3. Try to use as much of the 4th ed rules for combat as possible in regards to modifiers, suppressive fire.
4. Have the rules take into consideration characters with multiple initiative passes and the number of bullets being fired as positive dice pool modifiers
5. Create total chaotic scenario where brass casings litter the ground, bullets are zinging past characters heads, and be able to do it in less then 30 minutes of playing time.
6. Less paperwork!

Here is one of my ideas:

Each round is 15 seconds (5 combat turns) of game time
Everyone is assumed to have good cover
At least one person from each side is assumed to be using suppressive fire.
The character laying down suppressive fire uses 40 rounds of bullets or can use less if someone else helping lay down suppressive fire using the standard rules for Suppressive fire Rolling Agility + Firearms.
-Example Player 1 only has 32 rounds in SMG, Player 2 could fire 8 rounds from his gun (while other character is reloading, ducking back into cover, ect)
Characters not suppressing fire can fire as many times as the rules state in 5 combat turns taking into account Initiative Passes Reloading, but risk getting hit by enemies suppressive fire every time they attack, unless they use blind fire, the penalties cumulative for dodge tests (Street Samurai with 3IP and 6 round SA gun could fire total of 13 times, but would probably be dead before he could shoot them all.

I appreciate any feedback, thanks

[Omenowl]

I would lengthen the combat time, but instead of worrying if the yakuza are shooting to hit I would rather them fire for suppression. Leave it to the players to decide if they want to hide behind cover while being flanked or while the yakuza being up heavier firepower such as grenades to make them move.

Your other option is to write down the actions each yakuza will do at predetermined intervals. At 18 seconds the yakuza do this, at 35 seconds the yakuza do that, etc. Between 35 and 40 seconds lull in shooting as yakuza reload. Then play it via real time with a timer. Pause it every time a player gives a description in which they do things including talking. If player A tells Player B he is going to do x then don't stop the timer. Every time a player exposes himself pause the timer roll to see if suppressive fire hits him and then roll for the player's action. Keep the tension high.

Lots of high negative modifiers for the players if the yakuza outnumber them and assume each yakuza has a zone so if a player appears he will be shot at by that yakuza (players have to pick their targets or at least acquire their targets, which may not be the yakuza shooting at them). As time moves forward start having the yakuza bring in grenades (frag, concussion, chemical, or smoke). Whatever will force the players to move. Make sure the players are never quire sure how many yakuza are around. If they see 12 and only 6 are firing they may want to think what happened to the other six.

[Dragnar]

First things first, a firefight between 3 runners and 12 mooks isn't going to last 5 minutes. A competent street samurai can waste 12 regular guys in 3 combat turns, tops, so I assume the team to win the fight in the first or second at the very most turn.
Shadowrun combat is extremely fast compared to "real" firefights". If you want to change that, you'd have to change the fundamental combat rules. No amount of "large scale" simplifications will fix that, as it's a fundamental function of how combat works.

The main reason resolving combat in SR takes so long is that it requires 3 rolls for every attack. If you combine soak and dodge into a single roll, things go much smoother. This is alot easier said than done, however, because it opens quite a can of worms.

If you want longer combat turns to resolve measurably shorter, you can't allow people to get to roll that many tests. A PC rolling 13 attacks eats a lot of time, you won't meaningfully shorten the whole thing that way. A more useful way would be combining all their regular actions into fewer, better ones (so the street sam isn't acting at least 6 times per combat turn like he does now). Otherwise, you'd get the character to spend more "ingame time" (because of the longer combat turns), but you don't actually save any "outgame time" (because the turns take just as long to resolve).

[Bushw4cker]

In my example the 12 Yakuza who are professional rating 3, aren't your standard mooks. A competent Street Samurai is not going to be able to easily take down twelve targets while under heavy fire from multiple automatic weapons. In my example, the Group doesn't need to kill all the Yakuza, they just need to buy themselves 5 minutes until help arrives. This wouldn't be typical fight in one of my campaigns, 95% of the time I would use standard combat rules, but in those rare situations where the characters are overwhelmed by confident bad guys, I wanted to have house rule that would be able to satisfy my previously stated goals.

Thanks for responding to post

[Bushw4cker]

Omenowl, that is an excellent idea! thanks. I might use the predetermined intervals and using a timer. Thanks for your comments

[kzt]

Nobody ever misses in SR. Ok, not literally true, but it's not terrible inaccurate as a general statement. So if you WANT the potential of firefights lasting minutes you have to seriously rework combat.

Real world, this type of combat could last for many minutes, but in SR it's going to be over in seconds. Assuming the PCs are built like most PCs, at least two of the PCs will go first. They shoot 2 Yaks and roll back into cover. On IP 2 & 3 they do it again. On about turn two a concealed F5 spirit appears behind the Yaks and starts blowing up mooks on turn 3, if there are any left.

If IP 1 Yaks are running suppression they are firing 20 rounds per 3 seconds, and having to reload about every 2 IPs. So if six yaks suppress with the others waiting/reloading the yaks will have fired 12,000 rounds of ammo in 5 minutes. Really? Did they each bring a wheelbarrow of magazines?

Anyhow, suppressive fire just isn't that effective in SR, as you can effectively soak most of 5P with armor and body and fix the rest with first aid if they actually get hit.

[Bushw4cker]

kzt, it would be more likely in my scenario for the Yaks to go through about 2000 rounds of suppressive fire, these are professional rating 3 NPCs, they aren't your standard Gangers. The use of suppression fire is psychological, and it allows for the advancement of supporting units under its cover.
Lets say a Street Sam with Body of 6 and Ballistic armor of 6 gets hit by an assault rifle round (6P -1) he's going to roll 11 dice probably getting 3 to 4 successes, more then likely taking a few points of damage.

[kzt]

2000 rounds is the minimum, as you can't shoot less than 20 rounds every three seconds. So that's just one guy firing suppression. That's not terribly effective.

Also, if the PCs roll out into the suppression fire they only have a chance of being damaged that one action. After that they don't move, they just shoot. Which means if more people start firing suppression it doesn't help. And with the standard flashpaks, smoke grenades, etc (plus, hopefully, magic) they have a pretty good chance to not get seen or hit by people trying to actually shoot them.

If the PCs have pistols they are likely screwed, if they are carrying alphas and grenades things are likely to be rather different.

[Bushw4cker]

Kzt, Given my objectives about what I want to do with large scale combat, what do you propose that I do? I want to create a house rule similar to Vehicle Chase Combat, but for situations where PC's are facing large amounts of competent enemies.

1. Speed up combat when characters are fighting large group.
2. Put characters in situations where no shadowrunning team has encountered in my experience with game, running risk of running out of ammo.
3. Try to use as much of the 4th ed rules for combat as possible in regards to modifiers, suppressive fire.
4. Have the rules take into consideration characters with multiple initiative passes and the number of bullets being fired as positive dice pool modifiers
5. Create total chaotic scenario where brass casings litter the ground, bullets are zinging past characters heads, and be able to do it in less then 30 minutes of playing time.
6. Less paperwork!

[Makki]

although it will take most of the fun out of the game, but you could consider buying hits statistically (1/3), because everybody would role a fair amount of dice anyway.

[ShadowPavement]

This is a tool I like to use when dealing with large combats.

"10 Good Hits"