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> I have got to take Krav Maga, Am I reading this right?
Kovu Muphasa
post Feb 5 2010, 04:38 AM
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Krav Maga
Advantages: Take Aim becomes a Free Action.

Sooooo...
Two Aimed Shots at one Target.
•Spend your first Simple Action to Aim
•Take your Aimed Shot
•Take your Free Action to Aim once more.
•Take your Second Shot.
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hahnsoo
post Feb 5 2010, 04:39 AM
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QUOTE (Kovu Muphasa @ Feb 5 2010, 12:38 AM) *
Krav Maga
Advantages: Take Aim becomes a Free Action.

Sooooo...
Two Aimed Shots at one Target.
•Spend your first Simple Action to Aim
•Take your Aimed Shot
•Take your Free Action to Aim once more.
•Take your Second Shot.
Which is... three Simple Actions and one Free Action in a single pass?
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Kovu Muphasa
post Feb 5 2010, 04:41 AM
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You can fire a Semi-Automatic Weapon twice in One Simple Action and a Free Action can be taken at any time IIRC
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hahnsoo
post Feb 5 2010, 04:42 AM
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QUOTE (Kovu Muphasa @ Feb 5 2010, 12:41 AM) *
You can fire a Semi-Automatic Weapon twice in One Simple Action and a Free Action can be taken at any time IIRC
Each shot takes a Simple Action, and you have two Take Aim actions there. I suppose it's Two Simple Actions and Two Free Actions, but you are still using too many actions.

EDIT: p 153, SR4A:
"SEMI-AUTOMATIC MODE
Guns that fire in semi-automatic mode can be fired twice in the same Action Phase. Each
shot requires a Simple Action and a separate attack test.
The first shot is unmodified; the
second shot, if fired in that same Action Phase, takes a –1 recoil dice pool modifier. Recoil
compensation can cancel out this modifier."

This has been true in all Shadowrun editions, as far as I know.
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Kovu Muphasa
post Feb 5 2010, 04:49 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Feb 4 2010, 11:42 PM) *
Each shot takes a Simple Action, and you have two Take Aim actions there. I suppose it's Two Simple Actions and Two Free Actions, but you are still using too many actions.

EDIT: p 153, SR4A:
"SEMI-AUTOMATIC MODE
Guns that fire in semi-automatic mode can be fired twice in the same Action Phase. Each
shot requires a Simple Action and a separate attack test.
The first shot is unmodified; the
second shot, if fired in that same Action Phase, takes a –1 recoil dice pool modifier. Recoil
compensation can cancel out this modifier."

I guess you are right, I still thinking about a Gunfighter Adept that that I created for someone wileding Two weapon with the SA and # of shots per action.
My Bad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)
Either to much or To little Coffee. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Caadium
post Feb 5 2010, 04:52 AM
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If you have more than 1 initiative pass what you can do is this:

IP 1
Take Aim (Free)
Fire (Simple)
Take Aim (Simple)

IP 2
Fire (Simple, with Aim from last IP)
Take Aim (Free)
Fire (Simple).

An adept with Nimble Fingers and a Smartlink can do something similar
IP 1
Fire (Simple)
Fire (Simple)
Drop Clip (Free due to Smartlink)

IP 2
Reload Pistol (Free due to Nimble Fingers)
Fire (Simple)
Fire (Simple)

Sometimes the beauty of turning some simple actions into free actions is most noticeable when you think in terms of multiple IP. In the above examples, you can get 3 aimed shots in 2 IP, or 4 non-aimed shots while changing a clip over 2 IP; handy and helpful, but not "required." Besides, many of the martial arts are nice. I suggest picking based on what best fits the character concept.
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Umidori
post Feb 5 2010, 07:25 AM
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Here's another neat trick.

"An extra Free Action may be taken in place of a Simple Action (so the character would get two Free Actions and one Simple action, or three Free Actions, instead of one Free and two Simple Actions)." <SR4, p.136>

This means Krav Maga makes it possible to Take Aim three times per IP, which is another excellent efficiency boost. Of course, do remember that...

"The maximum number of sequential Take Aim actions a character may take is equal to one half the character’s skill with that weapon, rounded down." <SR4, p.137>

~Umidori

This post has been edited by Umidori: Feb 5 2010, 07:38 AM
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LurkerOutThere
post Feb 5 2010, 08:06 AM
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Yes, Jew-fu is pretty amazing.

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would ever take gun ka....i mean fire fight in a world where Krav mage exists.
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Dragnar
post Feb 5 2010, 10:53 AM
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Krav Maga is the best style by a very large margin, simply because of that bonus. "Take Aim as a free action" is basically identical to "+1 die to all offensive actions", (which, incidentally, is the same as +1 damage) which is already better than most other styles.
Add that to the fact that Krav Maga works for ranged combat and you can now "Take Aim" a whole lot in a single IP for hefty dice pool bonuses and there's no reason to every take any other style over it, which sadly kills diversity.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Feb 5 2010, 10:59 AM
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Forget about the bonus dice of Take Aim. It allows you to use Image Magnification, which eliminates range penalties that are a lot bigger.
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Garou
post Feb 5 2010, 01:18 PM
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i thought you could only do one free action per IP.
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Aerospider
post Feb 5 2010, 01:33 PM
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QUOTE (Dragnar @ Feb 5 2010, 10:53 AM) *
"Take Aim as a free action" is basically identical to "+1 die to all offensive actions", (which, incidentally, is the same as +1 damage)

It's only the same as +1 damage if that bonus die hits, so it's really only +1/3 damage.
There is also the added bonus of a reduced glitch probability (though that's mostly applicable to low DPs).

This is all based on the assumption that the character has nothing better to do with his free action. For most groups (especially in a raging firefight) this will be true, but free actions have many uses that players may take for granted like speaking, running and sending commands to your smartgun.
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StealthSigma
post Feb 5 2010, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (Garou @ Feb 5 2010, 09:18 AM) *
i thought you could only do one free action per IP.


You get either...
1 Free Action + 2 Simple Actions
1 Free Action + 1 Complex Action

Simple Actions can be used as a Free Action. No matter what, you can only take 3 actions per IP at best. Meaning you could take 3 free actions.

Assuming you are attempting to attack every round, this allows you to do....
FA- Take Aim
SA- Take Aim
SA- Shoot

However, unless you actually need +2 from take aim to hit the target reliably, the best benefit from Krav Maga is likely...
FA- Take Aim
SA- Shoot
SA- Shoot
For 1 IP or the last IP when you have odd numbers of IPs

-or-

FA- Take Aim
SA- Shoot
SA- Take Aim

SA- Shoot
FA- Take Aim
SA- Shoot
For even numbers of IPs.

The other, perhaps unmentioned thing, is that with a Free Action take aim, you could do the following unless the rules strictly prohibit it.

FA- Take Aim
CA- Long Burst/Full Auto
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Draco18s
post Feb 5 2010, 02:35 PM
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My drake gun adept had Krav Maga. I abused the hell out of it too, well sorta. I still only had 13 and 12 dice to each shot, of course, so the free action was much appreciated. I also had dual clips in my P93, so I could switch ammo types pretty much at will (and I never once changed a clip,* not with 60 rounds in each one and never fired anything but short bursts and tended to only get in a coupler per combat--I spent more time strategically using cover and letting my teammates get shot at).

*Actually, I did finally change near the end of that game, where I took out ~15 rounds from one clip and filled back up to 60 during downtime.
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Saint Sithney
post Feb 6 2010, 03:09 AM
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I prefer Wildcat's +1 die when calling shot to increase Damage.
Makes a Take Aim action turn into at least 1 more guaranteed hurtbox.
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Neraph
post Feb 6 2010, 05:13 AM
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WARNING: LINKS MAY NOT BE APPROPRIATE FOR MINORS!

Yes, you need to take krav maga.

EDIT: And personally, I prefer the Ready weapon as a free action bonus available. It will speed up archery or throwing attacks about 50%.
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Cardul
post Feb 6 2010, 05:45 AM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Feb 6 2010, 01:13 AM) *
WARNING: LINKS MAY NOT BE APPROPRIATE FOR MINORS!

Yes, you need to take krav maga.

EDIT: And personally, I prefer the Ready weapon as a free action bonus available. It will speed up archery or throwing attacks about 50%.



*looks at the video* So....you really think subdue and/or runaway is why one should take it? Those were not finished fights...the guys they
subdued will just be out on a technicality, and then come for the people that beat them up. Or are you saying people need to take Krav Maga because
most thugs are going to be stupid?
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Wounded Ronin
post Feb 6 2010, 05:48 AM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Feb 5 2010, 04:06 AM) *
Yes, Jew-fu is pretty amazing.


Jew-jitsu.
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LurkerOutThere
post Feb 6 2010, 06:10 AM
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Oh boy oh boy oh boy, this might become a real world martial arts thread. I've got my tranq rifle and my tracking collars ready, can finally complete that paper i wanted to do on the habits and migration patterns on internet tough guys.
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LurkerOutThere
post Feb 6 2010, 06:13 AM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Feb 5 2010, 11:48 PM) *
Jew-jitsu.



I think Jew-Fu has more cachet, your millage may vary.
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Space Ghost
post Feb 6 2010, 07:10 AM
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I have a semi-related question. Does adept centering require a free action like regular centering? The text doesn't mention it, but it seems to be a variant of regular centering. If it doesn't take an action you could, you could double your cheese factor. Center for range/visual/wound penalties, then aim for +1 die, that sort of thing.

Thoughts?
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Wounded Ronin
post Feb 6 2010, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Feb 6 2010, 02:10 AM) *
Oh boy oh boy oh boy, this might become a real world martial arts thread. I've got my tranq rifle and my tracking collars ready, can finally complete that paper i wanted to do on the habits and migration patterns on internet tough guys.


Seriously? I didn't think anyone took Krav seriously anymore. Whatever merit it may have had as a pretty straightforward and conventional military hand to hand combat cirriculum has since been utterly teabagged by soulless marketing and commercialism in the United States. The fact that you can now buy a Krav Maga sports bra pretty much says it all.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Feb 6 2010, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Feb 6 2010, 02:47 PM) *
Seriously? I didn't think anyone took Krav seriously anymore. Whatever merit it may have had as a pretty straightforward and conventional military hand to hand combat cirriculum has since been utterly teabagged by soulless marketing and commercialism in the United States. The fact that you can now buy a Krav Maga sports bra pretty much says it all.


Commercialization does not invalidate the effectiveness of the Martial Art though...

Keep the Faith
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Falconer
post Feb 7 2010, 04:41 PM
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Glancing through here... Biggest problem.

1. way too many actions, you can only do 3 things per combat pass. You're always limited in combat to 1 free & 2 simple, or 1 free & 1 complex.
2. You can substitute a free action for a simple action.
3. Multi-tasking gives you 2 free actions, but only out of combat.

I disagree a bit on the availability of free actions. I find myself always running out of actions. And take aim IMO is outdone by called shot (already a free action).

Though I disagree on the use of a free action, especially for an adept. A free action for an adept is adept-centering, ignoring dice penalties equal to your initiate grade. Especially for the dual wielding pistol adept above. Given the choice of firing twice and taking aim, called shot, adept centering... or numerous other free actions (such as communicating w/ your teammates!!!). Take aim is pretty far down that list... (barring the case of scoped combat! where first take aim uses the scope).
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Critias
post Feb 7 2010, 05:01 PM
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Any martial art video you find on Youtube is going to make that martial art look like the best thing ever, because top instructors (and the occasional token woman) are going to beat all kinds of Hell out of obligingly slow thugs in five-and-six move combos, often accompanied by exciting music.

There's nothing wrong with Krav as a basic martial art that will teach you how to react to stressful situations, take a hit, get your fitness level up, and will show you a small sampling of very simple, very effective, strikes. If you train hard in Krav, you'll get just as much from it as if you train hard in anything else.

That said, it's YOU that counts, not the martial art. You won't get anything from Krav -- unlike in-game -- that you can't get at any other reputable school, if you put in the time. It's not a magical school of automatic win, it's not a worthless school of automatic lose. It comes down to how much work you put in, how seriously you take it, and the quality of instructor more than anything else.

Which, of course, isn't easily quantifiable in an RPG, so instead martial arts all grant you cool special abilities you couldn't get other places, or augment the cool special abilities you've already got from magic or cyber, etc, etc, which tends to differentiate between the various arts to an unnecessary degree. Real life Krav Maga (or the genuine martial arts that work hard on integrating pistols into close-combat) don't magically teach you to draw and aim and fire any faster...YOU do that yourself.

The simple fact is most martial arts have a lot more things in common than things that set them apart from one another. The human body only works in so many ways, and every martial art in the world has designed itself to work along those lines -- your leg swings this way, your arm moves this way, your body can take damage here but not here so you block this way -- in order to make us more efficient at combat. Everyone wants their style to be the best, but it's the artist, not the art, that really makes the difference.
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