Martial Arts And Melee Weapon Skills Options

[LowKey]

Hey folks,

Just got a quick question that needs a confirmation, checked through books but couldn't see anything solid.

I've got a character with a martial art (Arnis De Mano) and blades skill, and I'm confused which skill rating would be used in an attack. Do I:

A) Use the martial art skill
B) Use the blade skill
C) Use the lowest value rated?

I'm looking for a rulebook quotation for it to confirm it, as unless I get one the ruling will probably be for the lowest value and I'd rather not do myself out of dice to roll (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ancient History]

Martial arts just give modifiers or bonuses to skills, they do not limit or replace the skill rating in any way.

So if you had, say:

Agility 3
Blades 3 (Swords +2)

And

Martial Arts (Arnis de Mano: +1 Blades)

Then you would have 9 dice (Agility 3 + Blades 3 + 2 from specialization + 1 from martial arts) when attacking with a sword.

[tagz]

Agi + blade skill + modifiers when using a blade in an attack test

depending on what advantages you've taken you might add dice in modifiers or change the DV directly, and so on

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Not that Arnis has a dice pool modifier for blades.

[Aerospider]

Martial arts just give modifiers or bonuses to skills, they do not limit or replace the skill rating in any way.

Your GM may allow it as a specialisation but this is open to abuse. The character should be able to use it more often than not, but if he gets in a hell of a lot of fights and never uses the base skill rating then it's been overpowered.

[Heath Robinson]

Your GM may allow it as a specialisation but this is open to abuse. The character should be able to use it more often than not, but if he gets in a hell of a lot of fights and never uses the base skill rating then it's been overpowered.

I think you may be confusing the Martial Arts specialisation off Unarmed with the Martial Arts optional system from Arsenal. This thread appears to be discussing the latter rather than the former.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

I've got a related question. I took Muay Thai and +1 DV to unarmed attacks. Is cyber implant weaponry considered unarmed? Like a spur, or goring horns? Or do we go strictly on a skill basis? Unarmed Combat skill and Exotic Melee Weapon skill?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It's skill based. So for the spur, you need a DV bonus on Blades.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's skill based. So for the spur, you need a DV bonus on Blades.

But it that is the default, then that brings us back to the question of whether the Hardliner Gloves are actually a weapon (as listed under the charts) or an Unarmed Combat Damage Increase (+1DV to Unarmed Combat) as that is the skill being used... Can't have it both ways...

Keep the faith

[Rotbart van Dain...]

That wasn't the question. It was about the adept power.

[Karoline]

Hey folks,

Just got a quick question that needs a confirmation, checked through books but couldn't see anything solid.

I've got a character with a martial art (Arnis De Mano) and blades skill, and I'm confused which skill rating would be used in an attack. Do I:

A) Use the martial art skill
B) Use the blade skill
C) Use the lowest value rated?

I'm looking for a rulebook quotation for it to confirm it, as unless I get one the ruling will probably be for the lowest value and I'd rather not do myself out of dice to roll (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

There is no 'martial arts' skill, so you would use the blade skill. Martial arts specialization to blades skill would likely apply (But is a bit of a gimme spec as you've no reason to not fight using your martial art style)

[wind_in_the_ston...]

It's skill based. So for the spur, you need a DV bonus on Blades.

Well if it's skill based, then... it depends on which skill you're using - Blades (Cyber-implant Blades) or Exotic Melee Weapon (Cyber-implant Spurs).

For goring horns, if it's strictly skill based, then I don't get the bonus, since my +1DV bonus is to Unarmed Combat tests, and goring horns use Exotic Melee Weapon (Goring Horns). But the wording is for "unarmed attacks". Are horns that are growing out of my head considered weapons, or am I still unarmed? If we go by what makes sense, rather than RAW, how far a stretch is it?

[Rystefn]

Does Muay Thai teach headbutt technique? That's basically where I'd draw the line. Boxing does not, so the +1DV from Boxing would not apply to horns by my ruling, Muay Thai, I think, is the same.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That wasn't the question. It was about the adept power.

No, I was not referring to the OP, but to the discussion that pops up from time to time about that very thing... whether the mechanics override the tables (ie, because Unarmed is used with a Hardliner glove, is it a Weapon or a DV adjustment?)... this is in some ways similar to statements being used here, in that does Martial Arts apply universally, or is it Skill Dependant... The argument tends to swing both ways, depending upon who is discussing it at the moment...

So, it did have some tangential relevance... but not much I will indeed admit; so I apologize for the sidetrack......

Keep the Faith

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Does Muay Thai teach headbutt technique? That's basically where I'd draw the line. Boxing does not, so the +1DV from Boxing would not apply to horns by my ruling, Muay Thai, I think, is the same.

That's a fair way to look at it. The book says,

Unlike boxing,
Muay Thai uses legs, knees, and elbows as weapons, emphasizing
swift, brutal kicks and knee strikes. The martial art is well known
for its brutality, and is a staple of illegal pit fights.

It does mention the brutality, which always seemed to me to be an anything-goes sort of style, but it also says legs, knees and elbows. But then wouldn't my martial arts practice include using my body in all ways necessary? Which brings us back to whether horns are armed or unarmed. Kinda borderline, but I think I'll say no.

Thanks!

[dirkformica]

Does Muay Thai teach headbutt technique? That's basically where I'd draw the line. Boxing does not, so the +1DV from Boxing would not apply to horns by my ruling, Muay Thai, I think, is the same.

Hehehe, haven't watched many Bernard Hopkins or Evander Holyfield boxing matches, have you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I was not referring to the OP, but to the discussion that pops up from time to time about that very thing...

..about the adept power Critical Strike.

Does Muay Thai teach headbutt technique?

Given that MT borrows from normal boxing, too, and you seem to thing that boxing does - it does.

[Aerospider]

I think you may be confusing the Martial Arts specialisation off Unarmed with the Martial Arts optional system from Arsenal. This thread appears to be discussing the latter rather than the former.

I don't think I was. The optional system in Arsenal is distinct from the specialisation, but doesn't replace it. The optional system gives bonuses (used where applicable) and maneuvers (used where desired), whilst the specialisation gives a bonus 2 dice so long as the fighting style suits the situation. The first represents learning the strengths and techniques of the style in question, whilst the latter represents training focused on the fighter's prowess when specifically using the style. No reason you can't have both or just one.

It seemed relevant to a discussion about skill ratings and their conjuctive use with the optional system.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[...]whilst the specialisation gives a bonus 2 dice so long as the fighting style suits the situation.

Which is pretty much either broken or useless - either it applies pretty much always... or it only applies for formalized tournaments with rules.

[Surukai]

Which is pretty much either broken or useless - either it applies pretty much always... or it only applies for formalized tournaments with rules.

By no means broken! A lot of fighting may just be under tournament or arranged duel situations. It is just like "Sports injuries" specialization on First aid might seem "broken" for a min-maxed shadowrunner it is a far more plausible explanation how a runner became rich enough too stuff his body full of the latest and best bioware!

Not all fights or adventures are gunfights in the same alley where nothing but "Who has the highest force spirit spamming 'Fear'?" matters.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

By no means broken! A lot of fighting may just be under tournament or arranged duel situations. It is just like "Sports injuries" specialization on First aid [...]

So it's "useless" then - I can live with that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Aerospider]

Which is pretty much either broken or useless - either it applies pretty much always... or it only applies for formalized tournaments with rules.

It's not broken, just prone to abuse as I said in my first posting. There are plenty of conceivable situations where a martial arts specialisation wouldn't be applicable but the base skill would:

- Fighting blind might be considered an impediment to styles reliant on pinpoint accuracy.
- Few styles will cope well in restricted spaces.
- A troll boxer should definitely not get his specialisation bonus against a dwarf.
- Capoeira is unlikely to help on a narrow ledge.
- Judo is useless if you need to throw a punch.

And so on.

The player should totally expect to use it more often than not (just as someone with a specialisation in semi-automatics won't go buying many six-shooters) but will have to be prepared for times when it doesn't apply.

[Karoline]

- Capoeira is unlikely to help on a narrow ledge.

Actually I think it might be fairly.... oh ledge, not not on a ledge, but I'd imagine it would be good on like a beam or something where the ground is minimal but they have plenty of room to either side.... how many melee combats have you had on ledges in SR?

The player should totally expect to use it more often than not (just as someone with a specialisation in semi-automatics won't go buying many six-shooters) but will have to be prepared for times when it doesn't apply.

Which is a good point. All the other combat skills have 'This spec applies 99% of the time' options, so I don't see why unarmed shouldn't. SA is practically the only kind of pistol that exists, and so even if a runner manages to loose her own, the chances are >90% that the next random pistol she jacks from someone will be an SA pistol. Heck, most skills that you spec in you're generally only going to be making the spec test, so I don't see a 'martial arts' unarmed/weapon spec being all that broken.

[Smokeskin]

It's not broken, just prone to abuse as I said in my first posting. There are plenty of conceivable situations where a martial arts specialisation wouldn't be applicable but the base skill would:

- Fighting blind might be considered an impediment to styles reliant on pinpoint accuracy.
- Few styles will cope well in restricted spaces.
- A troll boxer should definitely not get his specialisation bonus against a dwarf.
- Capoeira is unlikely to help on a narrow ledge.
- Judo is useless if you need to throw a punch.

And so on.

The player should totally expect to use it more often than not (just as someone with a specialisation in semi-automatics won't go buying many six-shooters) but will have to be prepared for times when it doesn't apply.

If someone tried capoeira in a fight, I'd smack them with a Called Shot modifier for trying to attack in such a specific and impractical way. I'm fine with styles applying quite often, but only if players choose styles that actual works for fighting.

And semi-automatics, doesn't nearly everyone houserule that into light and heavy pistols?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Which is a good point. All the other combat skills have 'This spec applies 99% of the time' options, so I don't see why unarmed shouldn't.

Actually, they don't. They exclude some thing, and that's the whole point of them - the SA spec won't work with tasers.
More important, they make it much easier when to apply them and don't just rely on the half-knowledge of the GM and the whining of the player.

Even "when using the MA edges or maneuvers" doesn't help, as they are broad.