The death penalty in Shadowrun Options

['Sconnie]

A dead prisoner is a prisoner that isn't making money for the privately-run prisons.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)





-karma

Five words: Pay-per-view execution broadcasts.

I can totally see Horizon doing this.

[Penta]

Horizon seems outwardly too cuddly. And that seems like a step too far for most populations in even the dystopia that is Shadowrun.

Aztech might do it though.

[Daylen]

Running Man anyone?

[Sengir]

You can get snuff BTLs and pirate broadcasts of Azzie bloodsports at every corner, who would bother with that?

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, I tend to fall in with the prisons being profitable for private corps school of thought, so I tend to think the death penalty would be around but rarely invoked, particularly since some violent crims might make for good Urban Brawl competitors. Basically, if you're easy enough to handle that you can be captured, you're easy enough to be detained indefinitely at a profit. Plus, in my games at least, law enforcement has this funny habit of killing the Dahmer types during resisting arrest "incidents." Hard to handle criminals like shadowrunners are also likely to get the vigilante treatment, but there's also cases where a corp might cut a deal to work as company men, perhaps even getting released back into the wild with new SINs and some cosmods.

[Karoline]

Yeah, I tend to fall in with the prisons being profitable for private corps school of thought, so I tend to think the death penalty would be around but rarely invoked, particularly since some violent crims might make for good Urban Brawl competitors. Basically, if you're easy enough to handle that you can be captured, you're easy enough to be detained indefinitely at a profit. Plus, in my games at least, law enforcement has this funny habit of killing the Dahmer types during resisting arrest "incidents." Hard to handle criminals like shadowrunners are also likely to get the vigilante treatment, but there's also cases where a corp might cut a deal to work as company men, perhaps even getting released back into the wild with new SINs and some cosmods.

Prisons run by private corporations would be profitable. There is actually a book out (I don't recall what it was called though) about a public prison that was set up by someone who had half a clue what they were doing (I think a judge did it actually) and the prison cost less than just about any other prison to set up, and actually turned a profit. It also had the same quality of life (or better) than most other prisons.

It was basically the same as all other prisons, but it turned a profit. This was basically because they cut out all wasteful spending. They cut out things like buying steaks for the prison employees to take home every day (No, I'm not joking, alot of prison costs go towards this). I'm not sure where all their other cost cuts came from or anything, but yeah, basically goes into length about how this one prison was designed and build and run very well and so turned a profit while costing next to nothing, and then texas needs about 100x as much money to set up a prison of half the size that fails to turn a profit.

Some stuff I said is wrong I'm sure, as it was just something a teacher had mentioned for a bit in class a couple years ago. Never actually read the book myself, but it sounds kind of interesting, and very much supports the idea that dystopia future companies could turn a decent profit off of prisoners.

Oh, and as a side note, I'd imagine that awakened are more likely to not be kept prisoner. They'll either get offered a job in the company or given the death penalty due to the difficulty in keeping them under control.

[LivingOxymoron]

Horizon seems outwardly too cuddly. And that seems like a step too far for most populations in even the dystopia that is Shadowrun.

Aztech might do it though.

Atzlan does it, but for free. Remember, they have public "sacrifices".

[LivingOxymoron]

Prisons run by private corporations would be profitable. There is actually a book out (I don't recall what it was called though) about a public prison that was set up by someone who had half a clue what they were doing (I think a judge did it actually) and the prison cost less than just about any other prison to set up, and actually turned a profit. It also had the same quality of life (or better) than most other prisons.

It was basically the same as all other prisons, but it turned a profit. This was basically because they cut out all wasteful spending. They cut out things like buying steaks for the prison employees to take home every day (No, I'm not joking, alot of prison costs go towards this). I'm not sure where all their other cost cuts came from or anything, but yeah, basically goes into length about how this one prison was designed and build and run very well and so turned a profit while costing next to nothing, and then texas needs about 100x as much money to set up a prison of half the size that fails to turn a profit.

Some stuff I said is wrong I'm sure, as it was just something a teacher had mentioned for a bit in class a couple years ago. Never actually read the book myself, but it sounds kind of interesting, and very much supports the idea that dystopia future companies could turn a decent profit off of prisoners.

Oh, and as a side note, I'd imagine that awakened are more likely to not be kept prisoner. They'll either get offered a job in the company or given the death penalty due to the difficulty in keeping them under control.

As a corollary to this, there was a case last year of two judges in PA who were receiving bribes from a privately run juvenile detention company to send offenders to their facilities. These judges would routinely send offenders to these facilities for otherwise minor infractions (things that would usually warrant community service). The end result is that these facilities would receive more non-violent offenders, which cost them less to monitor, but would receive the same per person/per diem fee from the state government. Once these judges were found out, the state had to deal with hundreds of appeals.

In the Sixth World, however... expect this to be a regular occurrence. I would imagine that Corps like Lone Star would secretly track the profit they derive from individual judge's sentencing, and those found to be profitable would probably be approached about lobbying services, campaign contributions, and highly paid "consulting" jobs after they retire.

[Daylen]

I could also see occurances such as: Prisoner A is about to be released. Prisoner B is in for much longer sentence that has years and years left on it. Prisoner B dies (maybe gang fight or so). Prison authorities relable Prisoner A as the dead one and send the body of prisoner B to the morge under the name of prisoner A.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, perverse incentives are one of the big reasons I'm not really in favor of prison labor. Now I don't really buy into the idea that all criminals are victims of society, nor am I really a big union guy. But surely anyone could see how it'd be hard for free men to compete for a job when there's prisoners out there who can do the same work for under a dollar an hour and aren't subject to as many of those pesky labor regulations. Uneducated people with few job prospects are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime, so shipping off some of the jobs they can actually do to people who don't have a choice in the matter seems like looking for trouble to me, particularly if anyone who then gets in trouble is added to the prison labor pool. It's sort of like sending jobs to China, only shadier.


Anyway, I've never really incorporated it into my SR games because I don't really have my players deal with prison systems, but it seems like the sort of thing that makes for a pretty logical outgrowth of the dystopian wage slave motif.

[Karoline]

It's sort of like sending jobs to China, only shadier.

Woo, I have something new to cycle into my Sig!

Anyway, I've never really incorporated it into my SR games because I don't really have my players deal with prison systems, but it seems like the sort of thing that makes for a pretty logical outgrowth of the dystopian wage slave motif.

True, in general if a runner is in the prison system, it is time to retire the character, so the specifics of what happen aren't generally of a big concern. I mean sure it is nice to know if Samurai Joe gets out in 2 years (And maybe makes a guest appearance in the future), or 10 years (and maybe is a starting character for the next edition) or gets killed (And gets to become a Shadim (or whatever they're called) host).

[Cardul]

I think the only way to keep a good dystopian feel with a oft used death penalty would be if the soon to be executed were sent to a chop shop for human spare parts. That works even better if there are SINless around to not even need a real trial to go to the chop shop. The SINers would like to have cheap transplants availble to those who dont get caught violating the law.

*hmms* Tanamous run prison corp, anyone? Sounds like a good plan!

[Ophis]

Given extraterritoriality many national laws don't have to apply in prisons. Which to me says hassle free medical tests! Particularly on the awakened that way you know how invasive the drug is (as they get all sensitive and lose magic).

[Tias]

I agree with the points made here, and keep in mind that on Corp Territory, rules change a lot. I guess most extraterritorial Corps in the UCAS maintain use of death penalty for especially heinous civic crimes or high treason, but they also maintain a high level of discretion for their security corps, so you could say that they often make use of "capital punishment" against shadowrunning intruders.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Daylen]

medical experimentation is spelled out in SOTA 2064. unfortunetly the only referance to a death penalty was the pic mentioned above with a big troll wearing a cleaning crew shirt carrying out a body as an inmate looks on. After reading it though this thread does look like what you would read in the comments.

[kzt]

Given extraterritoriality many national laws don't have to apply in prisons. Which to me says hassle free medical tests! Particularly on the awakened that way you know how invasive the drug is (as they get all sensitive and lose magic).

Renraku judge "You, you and you, take this orc outside and shoot him."

[LivingOxymoron]

Given extraterritoriality many national laws don't have to apply in prisons. Which to me says hassle free medical tests! Particularly on the awakened that way you know how invasive the drug is (as they get all sensitive and lose magic).

Yes and no... if a prison system is contracted by a government, then the government in question probably has a requirement that the prison corp follow certain laws, guidelines, and regulations. While an extraterritorial corp isn't obligated to follow local law on their own territory by default, if it is part of their contractual obligations then they risk a breach of contract lawsuit or a termination of the contract.

It also wouldn't surprise me if certain national governments simply contracted the management and manpower, while maintaining the actual ownership of the prison and the land it sits on... that way, no extraterritoriality.

[Penta]

Yes and no... if a prison system is contracted by a government, then the government in question probably has a requirement that the prison corp follow certain laws, guidelines, and regulations. While an extraterritorial corp isn't obligated to follow local law on their own territory by default, if it is part of their contractual obligations then they risk a breach of contract lawsuit or a termination of the contract.

It also wouldn't surprise me if certain national governments simply contracted the management and manpower, while maintaining the actual ownership of the prison and the land it sits on... that way, no extraterritoriality.

I would presume that's how most govt's handle it.

[Daylen]

that presumes the govt isnt trying to turn a blind eye in the hopes of bringing costs down.

[Ascalaphus]

Or perhaps the government wants a place to send people to where they're unprotected; Guantanamo Bay/Extraordinary Rendition style.

[Penta]

That works for LWOP (Life Without Parole) inmates, Ascalaphus, but not for anybody with a *chance* of getting out. (Lone Star sourcebook indicates there's still parole and probation!)

Max security, when *all* of the prisoners have no legal chance of getting out, can indeed be hellholes. Yes.

Anywhere where the prisoner might be released, however, cannot be, or else it would be a ticking time bomb of PR catastrophe.

Also: I don't see it likely - it's possible (with a very slim chance), but not likely - that prisoners lose their right to habeas corpus reviews when their sentence comes courtesy of a UCAS or CAS court.

Which pretty well sets a floor to how bad prison conditions can get. It only takes one prisoner who suddenly gets released cuz his trial got overturned on appeal to blab to the media, after all.

And even IRL, there's a gathering movement towards prison reform.

[Semerkhet]

And even IRL, there's a gathering movement towards prison reform.

Further to this point, current RL technology is progressing enough to make home arrest with GPS tracker more feasible for non-violent offenders. In 2072 with dytopic loss of privacy and ubiquitous surveillance there would be no technical¹ reason why all non-violent criminals wouldn't be on house arrest, still able to go to their wage slave jobs during the day and consume corporate entertainment pablum at home at night. Only violent and dangerous² offenders would be in an actual prison.

¹ Though there might be plenty of economic and political reasons to keep non-violent offenders in prison.

² The definition of "violent and dangerous" will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

[Ascalaphus]

That works for LWOP (Life Without Parole) inmates, Ascalaphus, but not for anybody with a *chance* of getting out. (Lone Star sourcebook indicates there's still parole and probation!)

Good point. Killing them isn't always an option. But hurting is another story; I can imagine a judge inflicting some extralegal punishment on the side by the selection of which prison to send someone to.

I'm suddenly getting ideas about a prison organized like circles of hell, with varying degrees of unpleasantness for the inmates.

"Guilty! Send him to the fifth circle!"

[Stahlseele]

Well, in the reimagining of Deathrace, they framed a really good race driver and then paid different people to get him into one specific jail so he could race.
I say that's pretty shadowrun right there.

[Ascalaphus]

I think the big difference should be in having a real SIN. Without a SIN, you're a probationary citizen.. probably not protected by habeas corpus, or all manner of rights to exhaustive trial.

So suppose someone conveniently loses a SIN before being framed.. real convenient..