Newbie with armor question, what stacks vs what doesn't Options

[Stingray]

Thats a pretty lame explanation.

cya
Tycho

that is your opinion..

[Smokeskin]

Yeah, I'm with you Stringray. Players can also leave their pistol slides at home, they're easier to conceal that way.

[Stingray]

ok..
Lets Create Armor Clothing:
Zoe's British Gentleman's suit (4/2)

And Zoe's also offer Tie (w/ monogram of Alma Mater),and matching gloves

This like FFBA does not have seperate official stats for gloves etc,therefore making them Accessories, not part of Armor..
and still armor from basic suit works just fine without them..

[Wuerfelwerfer]

As a follow-up I have another question: Do dermal plating and the troll's dermal deposits stack? And does dermal plating count for encumberance?

[Mäx]

gloves and hood are not needed to get full 6/2 armor from FFBA (full-body version).. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ofcource they are.
IMHO the best solution to the stacking think is to just let all armor stack, makes much more sence then FFBA being the only magical piece of armor that stacks(especially as Zoé second skin is pretty much a high fashion FFBA).
There really isn't any good reason for armor not stacking, most of the time.
Doing that opens players up to picking their armor pieces according to what they see their characters wearing and not what gives the best armor out of those thinks that stack.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[ANGUS 4277]

why stop there..for body 9..
Armor Jacket (8/6)
FFBA (full-body) (6/2) (counted as 3/1 when counting penalties)
Vitals Protection (PPP system) 1/1 (discreet version)
Leg and Arms Casing (PPP system) 1/1 (discreet version)
Shin Guards (PPP system) 0/1 (discreet version)
Forearm Guards (PPP system) 0/1 (discreet version)
Helmet 1/2
Adding Troll's natural 1/1
(if making troll Changeling and taking Dermal Deposit-metagenetic quality previous numbers would be 2/2)
adding couple cyberlims w/armor 3..
All nice RAW legal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Or go the route I went with and have a troll body 9
F.F.B.A. for 6/2
Armor Jacket 8/6
Troll Skin 1/1
Orthoskin Rating 2 2/2

so that so far is 17/11 for just armor not even counting the body yet.

Then give him the Magician quality with a Magic score of 5
Bioware has removed 1 point of essence due to Orthoskin Rating 2 Betaware
Now have him have a force 5 sustaining focus for manipulation spells
and now cast the Armor spell on yourself Force 5 into the sustaning focus

Now Armor is 22/16 if you make your net hits plus you still have to take into account the body of 9.

[Ophis]

Or go the route I went with and have a troll body 9
F.F.B.A. for 6/2
Armor Jacket 8/6
Troll Skin 1/1
Orthoskin Rating 2 2/2

so that so far is 17/11 for just armor not even counting the body yet.

Then give him the Magician quality with a Magic score of 5
Bioware has removed 1 point of essence due to Orthoskin Rating 2 Betaware
Now have him have a force 5 sustaining focus for manipulation spells
and now cast the Armor spell on yourself Force 5 into the sustaning focus

Now Armor is 22/16 if you make your net hits plus you still have to take into account the body of 9.

Now make him a possession tradition a force 4 spirit (not the best he can get but it is on Magic rating. Thats
30/24 with the first 8 hardened. Heheh.

Actually I quite like the all armours stack idea, maybe add a "layers" note ie, Underwear, Clothing, Coat. You can only wear one of each so no armed jacket and lined coat, but you can wear a vest with that coat. This makes both FFBA and Armour clothing (with the sets stacking within themselves) less odd.

[Neraph]

As a follow-up I have another question: Do dermal plating and the troll's dermal deposits stack? And does dermal plating count for encumberance?

Part A) Yes. Part B) No.

[AngelisStorm]

Um, folks? Percentage of body covered = given penalty, does not equal "Hit Locations." Armored Jacked example. You're not "shooting them in the head" or "capping them in the knee," you're "shooting them where there isn't any amor."

The more of the body that is armored, the harder to shoot them where there isn't armor. That is all.

[Falconer]

Stingray:
That's one of the weakest counter-arguments I've seen in ages. If I was your GM, and you persisted in that I'd not make your life pleasant or ask you to leave.

Put simply, NOT using the full body condom, just means you get the effects of the grade 2 suit (which are still pretty good).. Grade 2 covers pretty much everything except the hands, feet, and head... so by removing that you've removed that extra protection.


To the OP:
Basically armor only stacks if it has the operative phrase "cumulative with worn armor".
In the case of a troll. They effectively have the critter power of Armor 1. (natural armor).


On FFBA and houseruling:
I don't really have a huge issue w/ FFBA as such. Because it's really of far more benefit to low body characters than to high body characters. Stop and think... who is it more important to. the body 2 character who can only wear 4/4 total w/o penalty (who know can get up to 6/5 w/o penalty w/ grade 2 FFBA). Or the heavily armored troll who gets much less marginal improvement from it.

I could even see giving other armor stacking properties... but then I'd stack it full for encumbrance and only give half benefit for the lighter piece. But generally in SR4a... armor is already pretty damn effective... so I'd be careful of this and probably recommend against it.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Do dermal plating and the troll's dermal deposits stack?

The SR4 rules say nothing about it, but I'd swear that earlier editions said that you couldn't glue it over lumpy troll skin (you had to remove the lumps/armor). This penalty would not nerf trolls.

The full-body suit covers the entire body, including the extremities,
and comes with gloves, booties, and a hood.

Apparently the accessories are just for show. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) In truth, I can't imagine the gloves or socks providing a whole lot of armor. The hood, yes. I think the hood is probably worth 1/1. Note that the half body suit doesn't cover the arms.

That part wasn't in mine. Are you using SR4A?

No, I just added that to make a point about Edge.

I keep a close eye on form fitting body armor in social situations. Like when people say they're wearing it under their clothes, when going to a stylish club for a meet. I picture it like a somewhat-thicker neoprene wetsuit. I ask them what clothes they're wearing. Some outfits are more revealing than others, and some FFBA suits have more coverage than others. How much of your armor do you want showing, and how likely is it to bar you from the club?

Another option for stacking armor is the cyberlimb. With each limb you get an extra damage box on your monitor, and you can buy them with armor and body. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

I believe that FFBA is not stackable with heavy armor. That's because heavy armor is already built on a form-fitting suit.

[Glyph]

The SR4 rules say nothing about it, but I'd swear that earlier editions said that you couldn't glue it over lumpy troll skin (you had to remove the lumps/armor). This penalty would not nerf trolls.

It stacked in previous editions. For example, the sprawl ganger archetype in third edition. It would be a pretty senseless bonus, otherwise, since nearly any tank build will get either orthoskin or dermal sheathing, and trolls as a metatype are more or less oriented towards that role.

[Omenowl]

I have no problems with stacking armor. However, I would only add 1/2 of the armor value, but full encumberance. This way it helps to increase armor, but you become less and less mobile doing so. As for limitation of stacking I would put a common sense issue. At a certain point the character has not only encumberance to deal with, but also the issue of overheating with so much armor.

The called shot issue it seems everyone forgets it is a collaborative effort between GM and player on what type of called shot is allowed. You can't assume a GM will allow armor bypassing or DV.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

It stacked in previous editions. For example, the sprawl ganger archetype in third edition. It would be a pretty senseless bonus, otherwise, since nearly any tank build will get either orthoskin or dermal sheathing, and trolls as a metatype are more or less oriented towards that role.

So why do so many orks get cyber eyes? Nobody plays trolls for the extra point of armor. It's just a bonus... that you might want to cancel out with an upgrade at some point.

[Glyph]

Again - it did stack in previous editions, and there is absolutely nothing indicating that it doesn't still do so.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"Full-body suit cover all body (ALL BODY, NOT HALF BODY) including exteremes AND it comes with hoodies,gloves.."
it said nothing those must be worn to get full armor

look at Synergist Business Line: long Coat,shirt and slacks, do i really must wear all to get armor from alone
weared Longcoat.
somehow i do not think so..

The Synergist Line provides armor based upon what you are wearing. Period... they stack to a certain degree, but that is okay... each piece grants an armor rating, if you wear the complimentary pieces, you have a unified Armor rating, if you do not wear them all, tehn you do not receive the full benefits of the armor... pretty cut and dried to me

If you are not wearing the Hood, gloves and Foot Coverings, you are not Wearing the FULL BODY suit... or more importantly you may be wearing MOST of the suit, but not all, at which point your armor rating suffers... Different tables take this to mean different things obviously, so your mileage may indeed vary... but in my opinion, if you are not wearing the Full hood, gloves and foot coverings, you suffer a penalthy of -2 Balistic and -1 Impact (thus the 4/1 rating, rather than 6/2 of the full suit) and are thus wearing a Half-Suit... the penalties are slightly less than the bonuses of wearing an actual helmet, so it makes a fair amount of sense...

Keep the Faith

[Neraph]

I keep a close eye on form fitting body armor in social situations. Like when people say they're wearing it under their clothes, when going to a stylish club for a meet. I picture it like a somewhat-thicker neoprene wetsuit. I ask them what clothes they're wearing. Some outfits are more revealing than others, and some FFBA suits have more coverage than others. How much of your armor do you want showing, and how likely is it to bar you from the club?

One of my friend's (who is a GM himself) players had a mage-medic who's dayjob was a nurse (female Russian elf nurse.. the male player has a... problem? Unsatisfied energy?), and he tried to get his elf-nurse to walk around in Full FFBA under scrubs as a cover, and started getting upset when the GM (rightfully) told him how that would look.

The SR4 rules say nothing about it, but I'd swear that earlier editions said that you couldn't glue it over lumpy troll skin (you had to remove the lumps/armor). This penalty would not nerf trolls.

They kinda semi do. In Runner's Companion, you can look at Dermal Deposits (page 112), which stack with trolls' dermal deposits and have pretty much the same effect. I'd call that precedence for 4th edition and use it to describe normal trolls as well (if there's any debate over it anyways).

[Stingray]

Stingray:
That's one of the weakest counter-arguments I've seen in ages. If I was your GM, and you persisted in that I'd not make your life pleasant or ask you to leave.

Put simply, NOT using the full body condom, just means you get the effects of the grade 2 suit (which are still pretty good).. Grade 2 covers pretty much everything except the hands, feet, and head... so by removing that you've removed that extra protection.


To the OP:
Basically armor only stacks if it has the operative phrase "cumulative with worn armor".
In the case of a troll. They effectively have the critter power of Armor 1. (natural armor).


On FFBA and houseruling:
I don't really have a huge issue w/ FFBA as such. Because it's really of far more benefit to low body characters than to high body characters. Stop and think... who is it more important to. the body 2 character who can only wear 4/4 total w/o penalty (who know can get up to 6/5 w/o penalty w/ grade 2 FFBA). Or the heavily armored troll who gets much less marginal improvement from it.

I could even see giving other armor stacking properties... but then I'd stack it full for encumbrance and only give half benefit for the lighter piece. But generally in SR4a... armor is already pretty damn effective... so I'd be careful of this and probably recommend against it.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) !!
..it was never anywhere said what kind of gloves,booties and hoodie of FFBA are... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)
Gloves: Fashionabe thin gloves
Booties: (like a thicker sock)
Hood: who knows/cares..

Street/Meetings: Suit/?, FFBA(full-body version), couple parts of PPP and possible helmet
Combat: Armor,FFBA (full-body version),helmet (hood under it + gas mask/respirator), couple parts of PPP..
any complains about that.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

I really don't see the problem with FFBA. It adds, at best, +1 die to your resistance against stick-and-shock. Basically, it's an excuse for using non-fatal force against your players.

Again, what's the problem?

[Mäx]

I have no problems with stacking armor. However, I would only add 1/2 of the armor value, but full encumberance.

Why would you do that, its allready possible to get the max armor you can wear without encumberance issues( well maybe not for the super high body trolls).
Allowing all armor to stack just makes it so you can select the armors based on what you see your character wearing and not according to what gives the highest armoor combination of those think that arbitraly stack.

[Omenowl]

The point is to discourage stacking of armor, but to still give some advantage if you do decide to stack. It is about diminishing returns rather than no return as the current rules would state. If a character wants to put as much body armor on as possible, but understands he can barely move it will be used mostly for things like EOD or static use such as a gunner. It also makes heat dissipation ideal for vehicle gunners.

I always viewed armor as both the ability to stop rounds and the amount of coverage. This is why you have called shot rules. If I don't think it is feasible to bypass armor then I let the damage value increase assuming the players aims at a critical location such as a head even if it is armored. If the only weakness of a creature are the eyes (such as a dragon or juggernaut) then I would let them bypass armor. If the unprotected portion is the hand then I would go with some other effect rather than damage or armor bypassing.

[Falconer]

Now make him a possession tradition a force 4 spirit (not the best he can get but it is on Magic rating. Thats
30/24 with the first 8 hardened. Heheh.

Actually I quite like the all armours stack idea, maybe add a "layers" note ie, Underwear, Clothing, Coat. You can only wear one of each so no armed jacket and lined coat, but you can wear a vest with that coat. This makes both FFBA and Armour clothing (with the sets stacking within themselves) less odd.

Incorrect, NOWHERE in ItNW nor Hardened armor does it state that this armor stacks w/ other armor. I challenge you to tell me where it says this in the rulebooks. This is one of the single biggest reasons possession traditions get a bad name.


Now stop and consider EACH point of force, adds +1 bod and +1 reaction (2 more dice reducing damage), 2 points worth of normal armor or 3 points worth of military armor. So your force 4 possessed character can easily add 16 dice (+4 reaction, and +4 bod +8 armor soak). There's no need to stack on hardened. But yes said character can get another 8 points of armor without penalty... (like from putting on a ballistic shield and adding PPP after possessing himself).

Just to recap... for every point of force, IF you stack, that's 2 points ItNW, 2 points armor, 1point bod, 1point rea. Or 6 (possibly 7 w/ military grade form-fitted) dice to resist/evade damage per point of force.

[Mordinvan]

Incorrect, NOWHERE in ItNW nor Hardened armor does it state that this armor stacks w/ other armor. I challenge you to tell me where it says this in the rulebooks. This is one of the single biggest reasons possession traditions get a bad name.


Now stop and consider EACH point of force, adds +1 bod and +1 reaction (2 more dice reducing damage), 2 points worth of normal armor or 3 points worth of military armor. So your force 4 possessed character can easily add 16 dice (+4 reaction, and +4 bod +8 armor soak). There's no need to stack on hardened. But yes said character can get another 8 points of armor without penalty... (like from putting on a ballistic shield and adding PPP after possessing himself).

Just to recap... for every point of force, IF you stack, that's 2 points ItNW, 2 points armor, 1point bod, 1point rea. Or 6 (possibly 7 w/ military grade form-fitted) dice to resist/evade damage per point of force.

They don't stack for the purposes of determining what attacks bounce off or are converted to stun, but they DO stack for the purposes of determining dice pools to resist damage.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Again - it did stack in previous editions, and there is absolutely nothing indicating that it doesn't still do so.

Glyph, I agree that the rules are specific about this. I only brought this up to point out that you gave a poor justification for it.

[Falconer]

They don't stack for the purposes of determining what attacks bounce off or are converted to stun, but they DO stack for the purposes of determining dice pools to resist damage.

Again, CITE IT or you're just blowing smoke.

EVERY source of stacking armor in SR4 now states that it is cumulative. NOWHERE is this stated in these powers.


It's 8 points hardened non-stacking... for force 4 then use the higher armor total to soak damage (and ignore damage of 8 or less). Apply AP against each armor type (hardened and normal) seperately for comparison sake.

Edit: I originally held the same view you did coming from earlier editions, and then got into a discussion on if there's AP which gets reduced first hardened or normal... etc.. the correct answer is both seperately I had to concede... Now, though SR4 is a new system and it makes a lot of sense it doesn't... the way the critter powers work... you could have a critter w/ hardened 8 and natural armor 12, meaning it would ignore most pistol fire, but still soak w/ 12 dice armor. 2 decoupled stats give a lot more leeway in critter creation.