Chemistry Use Options

[Brol_The_Mighty]

So I've been building a character that uses Chemistry for fun and profits...and have come across a question in regards to homebrewing. On pg. 78 it states that the ingrediants for a compound have an Availability equal to the compound, and a cost of 1/10th. Is the cost per dose/kilo, or per batch?

[Summerstorm]

Basic math tells me its all. 1/10th is 1/10. Wherever it is a drug you calculate in doses (for easier bookkeeping) wherever the chemicals are measured in KG all values are based upon KG.

For example you can cook up 50 doses of "Kamikaze" OR 50 KG plastic explosive in a Chemical Facility at once. The costs of it are 1/10 of the noted price, either of the doses or kg.

Hm just seen the 1/10... all other B/R have a normal 1/2 of the price as costs. Hm drugs are very lucrative *g* Of course you will get problems with the syndicates and gangs... but hey... have fun.

[Ascalaphus]

Hmm, the availability of ingredients the same as the intended end result compound? I can see the logic from a game balance standpoint, but from a basic introductory chemistry perspective that's a bit silly.

[Brol_The_Mighty]

I wasn't meaning if there was a diff. between dose and kilo. My original question, was how much does it get you? The amounts able to be made in one run are variable, based on your tools. You can make much more with a facility, then with a shop or kit. My question, was whether when you bought your raw materials, did their amount stay static? i.e. If I buy the mat's for Acid, and use the same amount in both a shop, and a facility, does it only make 1 dose, or does the shop make 25 (IIRC) and the facility make 50? OR, are you buying the mats for 1 dose/kilo.

[Caadium]

I wasn't meaning if there was a diff. between dose and kilo. My original question, was how much does it get you? The amounts able to be made in one run are variable, based on your tools. You can make much more with a facility, then with a shop or kit. My question, was whether when you bought your raw materials, did their amount stay static? i.e. If I buy the mat's for Acid, and use the same amount in both a shop, and a facility, does it only make 1 dose, or does the shop make 25 (IIRC) and the facility make 50? OR, are you buying the mats for 1 dose/kilo.

I'm not able to look up the RAW right now, but my instinct would be this: The B/R costs refer to the dose/kg/whatever no matter if its made via a kit/shop/facility. If it requires .1 kg of components to make 1 kg of explosives that doesn't change if you can only make 1 kg at a time or 50 kg at a time. Better facilities allows for higher volume production, not higher volume based upon the same quantity of supplies. Sure, in a real world situation you could argue that the higher volume, the more streamlined, the less wasted supplies there would be. This is not that real life, its a simple game mechanic, and so I would rule that the material cost is per dose no matter where you make it.

[Brol_The_Mighty]

Fair Enough, makes sense to me.

[Saint Sithney]

Hmm, the availability of ingredients the same as the intended end result compound? I can see the logic from a game balance standpoint, but from a basic introductory chemistry perspective that's a bit silly.

Most precursor chemicals are pretty restricted. Of course you could potentially brew the precursor chemicals with pre-precursor chemicals (ad infinitum) as needed to decrease availability, but then, you've got to up the costs and time and gear.

Certainly could see it done as a houserule, but the rules make a decent bit of sense as is.

[Ascalaphus]

I dunno. Maybe it'd be elegant to use Chemistry as an alternative to the black market, for acquiring nasty chemicals. Modify the threshold for a Chemistry test by the difference in precursor and end-result availability, something like that? (Within certain boundaries)

[Professor Evil O...]

Hmm, the availability of ingredients the same as the intended end result compound? I can see the logic from a game balance standpoint, but from a basic introductory chemistry perspective that's a bit silly.

Most precursor chemicals are pretty restricted. Of course you could potentially brew the precursor chemicals with pre-precursor chemicals (ad infinitum) as needed to decrease availability, but then, you've got to up the costs and time and gear.

Certainly could see it done as a houserule, but the rules make a decent bit of sense as is.

High purity precursors maybe. Even then, it really depends on what you are making. This is certainly true for pharmaceuticals and narcotics. Most basic explosives and propellants, on the other hand, can be made from very common and very legal materials. Some are however, fertilizers for instance, very easy to trace chemically given current technology. Others, like the components in low end solid propellants or thermite, would be nearly impossible to trace chemically.

You'd be surprised how many of the chemicals listed in shadowrun you can get legally IRL without a permit, ordered online, delivered by mail.

The hard part would be to get the procedures necessary. The actual procedures read like cooking instructions*. Following them isn't much harder than baking a cake. It would be even easier with automation available in 2070.

I dunno. Maybe it'd be elegant to use Chemistry as an alternative to the black market, for acquiring nasty chemicals. Modify the threshold for a Chemistry test by the difference in precursor and end-result availability, something like that? (Within certain boundaries)

I've actually had several players figure this out. I currently restrict things using regular police raids and rival drug dealers/bomb makers. That has forced the players to stay on the move and has generally slowed them down.

*No, I won't tell you where to find some.

[Brol_The_Mighty]

So far, I've only made some VERY concentrated Acid for profit, as well as some great drugs with various effects for my team. So far my favorite is Shade. Especially considering there are two adepts, and a mage in my group (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

High purity precursors maybe. Even then, it really depends on what you are making. This is certainly true for pharmaceuticals and narcotics. Most basic explosives and propellants, on the other hand, can be made from very common and very legal materials. Some are however, fertilizers for instance, very easy to trace chemically given current technology. Others, like the components in low end solid propellants or thermite, would be nearly impossible to trace chemically.

Yeah, even most toxins use chemicals with industrial an other practical uses. For instance, a legal pesticide like KE-IV probably shares a common chemical ancestry with something as stupid-dangerous as ringu, and, with a few nasty tweaks, one could take it from bug killer to man killer.

[Professor Evil O...]

Yeah, even most toxins use chemicals with industrial an other practical uses. For instance, a legal pesticide like KE-IV probably shares a common chemical ancestry with something as stupid-dangerous as ringu, and, with a few nasty tweaks, one could take it from bug killer to man killer.

And it gets really bad when you have access to things like DMSO, which can turn a lot of normally nonlethal chemicals into deadly weapons. There are an awful lot of things that are harmless by contact or ingestion (low doses) that are almost immediately fatal when introduced into the blood stream. Even in the real world, it can dissolve a very wide variety of compounds. The bad part is how easily available this makes DMSO. It's a fairly common solvent in organic chemistry labs because it is such a good solvent for so many chemicals.

Watch out for the players who want to start mixing it with things that you don't normally think of as dangerous, or that have non-contact vectors. There are plenty of salts that are very deadly if injected, but otherwise harmless. It is also a great vector for hallucinogens, knockout chemicals such as narco-jet, etc.