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> Tips for Handling Hackers
Jeremy Zimmerman
post Feb 15 2010, 11:58 PM
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I'm getting ready to try my hand at running SR4 again, and I'm looking to learn from some of my mistakes the last time around. The biggest challenge I found with the 4e rules last time I ran was the Matrix. We had one person playing a Hacker, and the experience we had was that he able to beef up his commlink pretty fast. To the point that it was very hard to challenge with Matrix related tasks within what seemed reasonable for the rest of the mission for the group. Part of this was that I tried to stick within the 1-6 scale that the game seemed to outline. For most situations, it was nigh impossible for nodes to notice him through his stealth software, and it was hard to keep him from finding commlinks (or other Matrix-accessible items) in hidden mode.

Another thing that comes to mind is that he would make copies of his software onto other commlinks and equip agent programs with the software. So when he had a straight-up Matrix fight, he would dump a whole lot of combat agents into the fray and swamp the other hacker. We tried a bit of escalation, using his own tricks against him, but it just wasn't fun at that point. It was possible to screw him over, but not in a way that seemed fun for everyone involved. He ended up shifting his character's focus to more of a street samurai and we did less Matrix related missions.

It is entirely possible I missed something, so I figured I'd turn to you guys and see what you do to keep Matrix related tasks interesting and challenging, even when the hacker starts capping out in terms of ability.
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DireRadiant
post Feb 16 2010, 01:07 AM
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So the perpetrator of Agent Smith exploit didn't like when it was used against him?

Read Unwired, read the SR4A Matrix section, it's been re written to clarify some procedures.

Stealth is very useful, and does it mark it hard to detect hackers, that's fine. Just remember the stealthed Hacker still has to do things, and each operation subjects them to risk.

Given time, Hackers can get into anything, create situations that restrict the time.
Active opposition can always challenge the PC and can be just as powerful.
A few data bombs ruin any Hackers day
Scale the tests as appropriate for critical points or data. Look at the rules about how much data can be gleaned.
Dealing with sprites, free sprites, technomancers, and AI can just make life suck, throw some thing weird in occasionally.

Can you give an example of a challenge that didn't work out?

And finally, there's nothing wrong with the Hacker winning a lot. As long as you don't make them omniscient.
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Jeremy Zimmerman
post Feb 16 2010, 02:12 AM
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QUOTE
So the perpetrator of Agent Smith exploit didn't like when it was used against him?


No, it just wasn't fun for me. I'm not a big fan of "things put in the game solely to screw over a specific PC." Nor did I want to get into an escalating rules monkeying to make a challenge for one PC. While I do know people who like to screw things up for everyone, he wasn't one of them. We were both genuinely stumped on how to make reasonable threats without being lame about it.

QUOTE
Read Unwired, read the SR4A Matrix section, it's been re written to clarify some procedures.


I didn't even think to check Unwired. =P It wasn't in print when we had our last campaign, so it wasn't a resource then. And I'll guiltily admit that I mainly picked up Unwired for the technomancer content. So SR4A is worth the cost? I hadn't bought it because I didn't think they would change anything significant.

QUOTE
Can you give an example of a challenge that didn't work out?


Keeping in mind that this is drawing off of memories a few years old: What would often happen is that I would have them need to break into a mid-level corporate facility inside of Seattle. Figuring that the scale for any rating for the systems was 1-6, with 1 being "Akbar and Jeff's Tofu Hut" and 6 being "ZOMGSOTA." (And 7-8 being rare experimental weird stuff.) Most of the places they attacked seemed to warrant about a 4 for most ratings. Since he'd quickly pushed all his relevant numbers up to 6 (or more, when possible), it was hard for them to detect that anything was going awry. On the rare occasions where the server did detect someone there, the level of hacker that was likely to respond was not going to be good enough to be a threat.

Through all of this I tried to keep it reasonable. Is the corporation really going to have a drek-hot hacker on staff 24/7? Will they even have one to respond to every possible system hiccup?

In comparison, it was easy to have reasonable combat threats to challenge the rest of the PCs. They were able to succeed without it being ludicrously easy. I just had the hacker stop rolling after a while, because all those d6's slowed down the foregone conclusion.

In retrospect I imagine he might have been enough of a threat for someone to go after him, but I kept beating my head against the way we had been working it.

I tried some "no signal" servers, and that mainly meant he had to jury rig a way into it on location rather than remotely, which wasn't a great hardship. Once he had fine tuned his hacking suite, he shifted focus to combat. With the other PCs all being combat driven, he wasn't usually in any danger there either.

Anyone with a commlink was hosed. Even on hidden mode with all their gear slaved/skinlinked/whatever, if I gave them what seemed like a "reasonable" ratings, it wasn't enough to slow his virtual juggernaut.
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DireRadiant
post Feb 16 2010, 03:19 AM
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In general passive setups, the generic rating 4 node, aren't going to resist a decent Hacker with time. If the Hacker has a day and decent Stealth, the system isn't going to be much of a challenge. That's fine. There shouldn't be much reward for Hacking that system. The rest of the team shouldn't seeing much challenge on their end either. It's about balancing between all the PCs activities. The "easy" systems shouldn't have anything valuable, challenging or rewarding on it.

It's not the rating of the system, but the variability of the response the system will perform when it is hacked. Some systems might be able to easily detect an intrusion, but have terrible counter measures, others will have terrible detection, but incredible counter measures. Don't forget simple things like an agent that runs analyze every other turn is going to notice something eventually. This is separate from the test for the Exploit. Other IC on the system will be scanning and checking for stuff the entire time. The odds are with the agent and IC over time. Some systems will have an active response or alert, these can easily over match the Hacker in terms of numbers or quality. Have an active icon show up and do a scan while the Hacker is in the middle of their illicit operation.

There are lots of tools to make the Hacking more interesting and variable after the Exploit to get into the system. Hacking in is only the beginning.

BTW "Agent Smith" has been gotten rid of in general terms with subscription limits.
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Neraph
post Feb 16 2010, 05:39 AM
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And not only that, "Agent Smith" can't work because the agent takes up proccesser limit, and each of his programs does too. If you have an agent running 5 programs, that's like your 'link running 6, and even a top of the line comm is gunna feel some Response penalty for that.

Also, Unwired has tons of useful rules for preventing things like this, such as Copy Protection on like freaking every piece of code. Oh, and standard code also has... Subscribed, or Owned, or something like that (Registered?), which means for each program you are running that has that option (which is every one unless you do something weird to it), then it makes it oh-so-easy to Track you.

Speaking of which, another thing you can do to make Hacking more interesting is to have the corporate spider (who sees the hacker and the spider himself has a high Stealth program) start tracking him - not engaging him in cybercombat. He could, if you so choose, activate some Black ICE and sick it on the hacker, but the Spider's main job is going to be to find the hacker's location and key in either a HTR team or the 'Star (or KE, depending on which timeline you're using).
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Saint Sithney
post Feb 16 2010, 10:14 AM
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Computing...
Computing...
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Saint Sithney
post Feb 16 2010, 10:14 AM
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Every Agent or IC has a specific Access ID linked to their core code. Because of this unique ID, only one copy of any Agent or IC can exist in a single node. So, you could spam a node from outside with a botnet, but you can only have a single copy of a bot in any specific place. Obviously, with enough time and money, a hacker could buy an army of agents and ergonomic programs, but he would have to actually work for each one.
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Ascalaphus
post Feb 16 2010, 11:20 AM
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Or you can spoof the access ID for the agents. Also, copy protection and subscription etcetera can all be removed (and any hacker would do so, it's not that hard)

The processor limits are also a very soft limit, because you can just cluster some more commlinks together to boost your limits.
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Blade
post Feb 16 2010, 11:31 AM
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What I tend to use and abuse as a GM is:
* accounts: most of the the time, the actions the hacker wants to do will require a admin account or at least a superuser account.
* suspect behavior: I have some actions require an IC check, or some other prerequisite that the hacker might not be aware of.
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FriendoftheDork
post Feb 16 2010, 01:06 PM
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Just to remind you, the rules for extended tests in SR4a should also make at least brute force hacking more difficult. With -1 dice pool per test after the first, it becomes much more important to get a good test as soon as possible and crack through before your dice pool gets too low - in my game a noob hacker (with Stealth 4) was detected while trying to hack a nearby car (firewall 3, analyze 1).

But I recognize the problem from a previous game.
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Saint Sithney
post Feb 16 2010, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Feb 16 2010, 03:31 AM) *
What I tend to use and abuse as a GM is:
* accounts: most of the the time, the actions the hacker wants to do will require a admin account or at least a superuser account.
* suspect behavior: I have some actions require an IC check, or some other prerequisite that the hacker might not be aware of.


But exploits bypass accounts all together. Way I figure is that all the action takes place on a lower Abstraction Layer than the OS, so there is no system to run checks for permission against the activity.
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Jeremy Zimmerman
post Feb 16 2010, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 15 2010, 07:19 PM) *
In general passive setups, the generic rating 4 node, aren't going to resist a decent Hacker with time. If the Hacker has a day and decent Stealth, the system isn't going to be much of a challenge. That's fine. There shouldn't be much reward for Hacking that system. The rest of the team shouldn't seeing much challenge on their end either. It's about balancing between all the PCs activities. The "easy" systems shouldn't have anything valuable, challenging or rewarding on it.

It's not the rating of the system, but the variability of the response the system will perform when it is hacked. Some systems might be able to easily detect an intrusion, but have terrible counter measures, others will have terrible detection, but incredible counter measures. Don't forget simple things like an agent that runs analyze every other turn is going to notice something eventually. This is separate from the test for the Exploit. Other IC on the system will be scanning and checking for stuff the entire time. The odds are with the agent and IC over time. Some systems will have an active response or alert, these can easily over match the Hacker in terms of numbers or quality. Have an active icon show up and do a scan while the Hacker is in the middle of their illicit operation.


Even with rating 6 countermeasures, I found that the odds were in his favor. Statistically, yes, I'd eventually roll better than him once in a while. But did I want to put us through that many die rolls and slow down play that much.

QUOTE
There are lots of tools to make the Hacking more interesting and variable after the Exploit to get into the system. Hacking in is only the beginning.

BTW "Agent Smith" has been gotten rid of in general terms with subscription limits.


I found mention of subscription limit, and other people have mentioned it. I haven't looked at the rules for subscription limit yet, but if that's a software issue, why can't it be hacked? I mean, I recognize the game balance value, but does it require too much suspension of disbelief?



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Jeremy Zimmerman
post Feb 16 2010, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Feb 15 2010, 09:39 PM) *
And not only that, "Agent Smith" can't work because the agent takes up proccesser limit, and each of his programs does too. If you have an agent running 5 programs, that's like your 'link running 6, and even a top of the line comm is gunna feel some Response penalty for that.


His work around, IIRC, was mostly having secondary commlinks or finding ways to install agents on other servers.

QUOTE
Also, Unwired has tons of useful rules for preventing things like this, such as Copy Protection on like freaking every piece of code. Oh, and standard code also has... Subscribed, or Owned, or something like that (Registered?), which means for each program you are running that has that option (which is every one unless you do something weird to it), then it makes it oh-so-easy to Track you.


I guess I'm a little iffy about copy protection on illegal software. It seems like any hacker worth his salt would remove that first thing. It's a level of quibbling and bookkeeping that seems... horrendous.

QUOTE
Speaking of which, another thing you can do to make Hacking more interesting is to have the corporate spider (who sees the hacker and the spider himself has a high Stealth program) start tracking him - not engaging him in cybercombat. He could, if you so choose, activate some Black ICE and sick it on the hacker, but the Spider's main job is going to be to find the hacker's location and key in either a HTR team or the 'Star (or KE, depending on which timeline you're using).


The problem I ran into was that he was generally better than the stock hackers I threw against him. If they couldn't find him, they couldn't trace him.
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Jeremy Zimmerman
post Feb 16 2010, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Feb 16 2010, 05:06 AM) *
Just to remind you, the rules for extended tests in SR4a should also make at least brute force hacking more difficult. With -1 dice pool per test after the first, it becomes much more important to get a good test as soon as possible and crack through before your dice pool gets too low - in my game a noob hacker (with Stealth 4) was detected while trying to hack a nearby car (firewall 3, analyze 1).

But I recognize the problem from a previous game.


Is that a change they made in SR4a? I don't remember it from SR4, but I could have just been doing it wrong all this time. =P
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Johnny B. Good
post Feb 16 2010, 04:47 PM
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Yay hacker tricks! Being my team's primary hacker there are a ton of things that I can think of to screw with hackers.

Let's say that I was Joe security spider, and there was somebody in my system drekking around. Finding him would probably be the hardest part. It's nigh impossible when he's probing but oh so much easier when hacking on the fly. Usually a hacker will want to hack himself a higher level account (Security or Admin), as we have houseruled any actions he does not have access to as a user of that level (Editing access logs as security, or unlocking a door / disabling an alarm as a user) provoke a free opposed (Hacking + Stealth) vs (Firewall + Analyze). There will also probably be an agent running analyze on the node once every combat turn or so, or even every round if it's a node with some particularly valuable information. There's no guarantee that you'll find him, but it's a much better chance when you put time constraints on the mission so he has to hack on the fly.

Once you've detected him, remember that alarms give a +4 to the node's firewall to resist crash tests and the like. On systems that are vital for operation (Hotel's billing server, a bank's main electronic storage facility), there will probably be a heavy response of agents and probably an off-site security hacker. Most of them will have blackhammer and WILL lock him into VR, track him and send lonestar or a small HTR team to his house. In simple systems, most of the time the easiest way to deal with most problems in a system is to reboot first and see what happens. If I was Joe streetsam and I noticed my cybereyes were acting funky, I'd reboot my commlink to see if it fixed the problem, and viola the hacker suffers dumpshock. Alternatively if you're fighting a team (Ares Firewatch squad, Renraku Red Samurai), they will probably have a tacsoft with the inidvidual comms slaved to a master comm that belongs to a very, very nasty hacker. The only way to take out their comms is to hack them directly, or to take out the root. In my team's case I use a tacsoft complex form and temporarily slave the team's comms to my brain, which prevents hacking from all non-resonance sources. It's basically a "Screw youuuuuuu" to all opposing hackers.

Also, technomancers. They can fold the matrix in half and proceed to eat it like a 64-bit pizza. With their brains.
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Johnny B. Good
post Feb 16 2010, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (Jeremy Zimmerman @ Feb 16 2010, 05:13 PM) *
I found mention of subscription limit, and other people have mentioned it. I haven't looked at the rules for subscription limit yet, but if that's a software issue, why can't it be hacked? I mean, I recognize the game balance value, but does it require too much suspension of disbelief?


It's probably a hardware issue. Think of it as a CPU on a computer. The higher the system (CPU), the more subscriptions (tasks) it can handle.
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Blade
post Feb 16 2010, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Feb 16 2010, 04:59 PM) *
But exploits bypass accounts all together. Way I figure is that all the action takes place on a lower Abstraction Layer than the OS, so there is no system to run checks for permission against the activity.


Admin accounts add +6 to the Exploit test threshold. If the hacker has an admin access, it means that he can use the legitimate command to do things (since he usually doesn't have to roll and when he does, he rolls computer rather than hacking) so there could be checks performed. If he doesn't have an admin access but tries to hack his way (I don't remember if that's possible according to RAW or if it's an house rule we use), there could be an alert because the activity was performed with no administrator around to do it.
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BlackHat
post Feb 16 2010, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (Jeremy Zimmerman @ Feb 16 2010, 11:17 AM) *
I guess I'm a little iffy about copy protection on illegal software. It seems like any hacker worth his salt would remove that first thing. It's a level of quibbling and bookkeeping that seems... horrendous.


IIRC, the book suggests that most hackers would - of course, the game mechanics for doing so are often cost-prohibitive (on the order of months for each piece of code you own) - and doing so makes the code "cracked" which Unwired has rules for purchasing pre-cracked (at like 10% of the price) but cracked software degrades quickly (one rating a month). It turns out that you don't have time to patch them up yourself, either - so your best bet is replacing code often.

Then again, I can count the number of games I have played which have lasted more than a month on one hand.
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Jeremy Zimmerman
post Feb 17 2010, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE (BlackHat @ Feb 16 2010, 09:08 AM) *
IIRC, the book suggests that most hackers would - of course, the game mechanics for doing so are often cost-prohibitive (on the order of months for each piece of code you own) - and doing so makes the code "cracked" which Unwired has rules for purchasing pre-cracked (at like 10% of the price) but cracked software degrades quickly (one rating a month). It turns out that you don't have time to patch them up yourself, either - so your best bet is replacing code often.

Then again, I can count the number of games I have played which have lasted more than a month on one hand.


That makes a certain degree of sense. I think the bookkeeping would be nightmarish. (And, that may be the point: If you don't want to deal with all the tracking of fiddly details like that, you are better off not doing it.)
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Jeremy Zimmerman
post Feb 17 2010, 02:13 AM
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I don't want to add 10 more posts to the thread just to thank you individually, but overall you guys have given me lots of good information and places to look. I appreciate you taking the time to help me with this.
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DireRadiant
post Feb 17 2010, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE (Jeremy Zimmerman @ Feb 16 2010, 10:17 AM) *
His work around, IIRC, was mostly having secondary commlinks or finding ways to install agents on other servers.


Agent uses the Hackers accessID for subscription, only 1 accessID at at time can connect.
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Jeremy Zimmerman
post Feb 17 2010, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 17 2010, 06:52 AM) *
Agent uses the Hackers accessID for subscription, only 1 accessID at at time can connect.


Right. I've gotten that from reading Unwired. I don't recall us having that info when I last played. But it's been two or three years since we played, and I'm having to relearn most of the rules, so I don't want to just outright say, "That rule didn't exist." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Because I'm sure that as soon as I do, someone will point out how wrong I am.
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Ascalaphus
post Feb 18 2010, 10:22 AM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 17 2010, 03:52 PM) *
Agent uses the Hackers accessID for subscription, only 1 accessID at at time can connect.


So how do botnets work around that then?
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Garou
post Feb 18 2010, 12:48 PM
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One thing that is different from military grade systems and just "great" systems is the system topology. THAT is the stuff that ruins any hackers day.

I tend to work things like that in my games.

Rating 4 are restricted. They are "normal" systems in terms of meanness. The hardest ones will have Stun Black Ice. Maybe a security hacker, but no big deal. Analyse agenst are a centainty, but other than that, they can pretty much do as they please.

Rating 5 Systems are icky. Here i throw some things, like patroling hackers. Lethal Black Ice appear here, but no "exotic". No esoteric requirements, but some pesky things, such as layered systems (important data is encrypted, data bombed, and kept into a ANOTHER system linked only to the first. The system does not allow encrypted data to be copied in anyway, so you have to take the time to decrypt it, and if you are not carefull, it will blow up in your ass).

Rating 6 are topological real trouble. For example, to get an admin acess, you need a PHYSICAL passkey, that only the sysadmin has, jacked into your commlink. Either you just cannot log as an admin, or if you do, it's automatically set as an Intruder Admin, that allows you in, throws some beefed up psycotropic ice up your ass and directs the resident security hacker AND his own agents directly at your location, as well as activating a trace on you). Data on such system is backed up at each 4 hours to another system and such system is disconnected from the original node (making file editing and deletion very hard). Systems like that can have trap files, fake empty files with data bombs on it, while important files are kept into "garbage" and "Games" sections.

Never through about rating 7-9 systems. Too much trouble, and my Evil Section of my brain becames too active. Then i tell the voices to shut up.
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cndblank
post Feb 18 2010, 10:17 PM
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Any street Samurai worth his salt is going to have his cyberware wireless disabled or removed and use a skin link to his smartgun.

Hardware will beat software every time if they want to spend the time and money.

Also remember that they have had 80 years to get used to handling hackers. You should make clear that some stuff can not be hacked on the fly.

Wither it using multiple physical keys to issue admin accounts, physically isolating the control center of an aircraft or military vehicle from the dog brain and hard wiring it so that the dog brain can never override a jacked in rigger, keeping serious research totally isolated from the rest of the matrix, Using data jacks and a fiber optic cable to have a private conversation, or using a laser comm link to control a Combat Drone, there are ways to stop a hacker cold unless they have plenty of time to set stuff up before hand or have someone on the inside.

If a Hacker finds a CAS Stonewall MBT (Main Battle Tank) up and on the move, then he shouldn't expect to wireless hack himself in to it on the fly no matter how good he is. All the critical systems will be hardwired to be isolated from outside comm traffic.

And a professional hacker would have a pretty good feel for when he is facing one of those situations.

The trick is to remember most people can not maintain that level of security for any length of time unless they have a real good reason for it.

A hacker has to be able to work with that and to find the cracks.
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