Your Best Build - Summoner, Can you summon a GF F18 Spirit? Options

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Any ideas on ways to be able to summon the biggest baddest spirits? I was playing around with ways to summon a Greater Form Force 18 Spirit (my magic rating is 9). I can't do it.

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A F18 GF Spirit will (on average):

Roll 12 hits on summoning attempt. 24 Points physical drain damage.

Then try binding him. 12 hits again. A nice tidy 36 boxes damage! It is out of my league. But it got me to wondering how powerful of a Spirit a "Spirit Master" character could summon.

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My character has:

Summoning DP: 21

Magic: 9
Summoning: 6
Spirit Specialization +2
Spirit Mentor +2
Magic Drug (forgot the name) +2 Summoning

Drain Resistance DP: 27
Charisma: 13
Willpower: 9
Centering: 5


Last, but not least, how many physical boxes can he take without going unconscious helps out here. I have possession based - Voodo character. I have channeling, so when my F9 GF spirit mounts me he gives me a good body bump. When all is said and done I can take 16 physical boxes and stay conscious. For you non-possession mages, have a mage friend sustain a Body increase spell on you.

By the way, don't take this post to seriously. Clearly this is unbalanced and I would not allow this in a game I ran. It just got me to thinking of HOW could it be done.
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[Udoshi]

You may ALWAYS burn edge to wave away an epic amount of drain like that. Should you succeed in summoning a spirit like that, I seriously doubt you want it goint free-willed at force 18 when the mage who summoned it keels over.

[AngelisStorm]

You may ALWAYS burn edge to wave away an epic amount of drain like that. Should you succeed in summoning a spirit like that, I seriously doubt you want it goint free-willed at force 18 when the mage who summoned it keels over.

"Wave away?" You should be a bit more specific on what your refering to.

Anyway, a Power Focus or a Summoning Focus will add X number of dice to the attempt. +1 for summoning skill at 7. Nice stats though.

Frankly, at F18 Great Form, your getting up there with "I AM SATAN, AND I WAS HAVING DINNER MORTAL!"

[Summerstorm]

Pretty much no one summons a rating 18 spirit... and a great one. Nah

I have build something weird here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...c=28486&hl=

It was the best i could do with 400 points, i think.

[Udoshi]

"Wave away?" You should be a bit more specific on what your refering to.

Edge. Specifically, burning a permanent point. Is it just me, or does nobody seem to realize what it can do beyond letting you reroll stuff? Its -good-

A mage with an edge of 3 or above is -ALWAYS- capable of ruining someone's day with a maximum overcast spell or spirit, if they really, really need to. One for the spellcasting test, and one to deal with the drain.

[pbangarth]

Edge. Specifically, burning a permanent point. Is it just me, or does nobody seem to realize what it can do beyond letting you reroll stuff? Its -good-

A mage with an edge of 3 or above is -ALWAYS- capable of ruining someone's day with a maximum overcast spell or spirit, if they really, really need to. One for the spellcasting test, and one to deal with the drain.

This opens up the never-ending debate: If the summoner can burn Edge to summon a ridiculously high power spirit, higher than he really should be able to handle, what is to prevent the spirit from burning Edge to stick it to the insolent mortal? Many, long arguments have happened here on DS regarding this issue.

[The Jopp]

This opens up the never-ending debate: If the summoner can burn Edge to summon a ridiculously high power spirit, higher than he really should be able to handle, what is to prevent the spirit from burning Edge to stick it to the insolent mortal? Many, long arguments have happened here on DS regarding this issue.

The difference I think is that when a player burns a point of edge he burns a specific amount of actual Karma that he has to regain in order to raise his edge attribute again - This is also exponentially more expensive since they burn the highest value of edge first (let's assume Edge of 6...)

Now...what was the cost for raising the edge attribute from 5 to 6...oh, and since he does it TWICE it will have to be raised from 4-5 and then 5-6.

The spirit has Edge by default of summoning it and risks nothing...

[LurkerOutThere]

And yet just because you can do something doesn't eman you should or that the oposition won't do the same. Furthermore you would have no complaint if it used that edge it has by default of summoning it while persuing your interests.

[The Jopp]

And yet just because you can do something doesn't eman you should or that the oposition won't do the same. Furthermore you would have no complaint if it used that edge it has by default of summoning it while persuing your interests.

I know what you mean but you get a very annoying problem in that case.

If the summoner “class” get to have his every whim countermanded by the summoned spirits edge why the hell would I want to play one?

That’s like having your spellcaster getting argument from his spells – or agents working against the hacker all the time.

Edge should be used in dire circumstances like WHEN you have to summon a F18 spirit. If the mage does it EVERY day then by all means let the spirit get fed up and use edge.

If the mage tries to summon a spirit that goes against his tradition (summoning a toxic version of his faith) then use spirits edge to resist all the time – or let the spirit be summoned and then attack the summoner.

[W@geMage]

The important part of the rule is this => The character must be capable of carrying out the action—you can’t buy a critical success for something you have no hope of achieving.

Work out with your GM what that means, as different people get different meanings from that phrase.

As a GM I would be very hesitant to allow Edge burning on an action like that.
Because binding a Spirit like that has multiple rolls that must take place.

1:Summoning + taking drain => get services for net hits
2:Binding + surviving drain => get add. services for net hits

How will you handle this when burning Edge?

[The Jopp]

The important part of the rule is this => The character must be capable of carrying out the action—you can’t buy a critical success for something you have no hope of achieving.

A very good rule of thumb - edge is not a godlike attribute that allows you to do anything.

[AngelisStorm]

Edge. Specifically, burning a permanent point. Is it just me, or does nobody seem to realize what it can do beyond letting you reroll stuff? Its -good-

A mage with an edge of 3 or above is -ALWAYS- capable of ruining someone's day with a maximum overcast spell or spirit, if they really, really need to. One for the spellcasting test, and one to deal with the drain.

And the previous responces, Udoshi, is why I asked for you to be more specific. Because I've read some of those endless arguements about what edge can and cannot do.

And F18 Great Form "SATAN" (capitals for dramatic emphasis) has a lot more edge than even Mr. Lucky.

I'm not normally a huge fan of "and the spirit slaps the impudent mortal down," but if this example hasn't cross the line, it's pretty dang close (only because I'm not sure where exactly the "NO" line is in this case. F16? 18? 20?)

[The Jopp]

I'm not normally a huge fan of "and the spirit slaps the impudent mortal down," but if this example hasn't cross the line, it's pretty dang close (only because I'm not sure where exactly the "NO" line is in this case. F16? 18? 20?)

For this I would recommend the following houserule (just made up):

A spirit will never use edge against their summoner unless the summoner has LESS magic rating than the spirit.

For each point of Magic difference the spirit is allowed to use an equal amount of edge to break free, resist and slap down the impudent mortal.

If a ritual is used the mages pool their magic rating in order to control the creature - allowing multiple low level mages to summon the dread lord...

So, a spirit with X3 the amount of a very good summoner would be able to use around 12 edge points - just to stop such sillyness - which also helps ritual magic and teamwork summoning.

[AngelisStorm]

If a ritual is used the mages pool their magic rating in order to control the creature - allowing multiple low level mages to summon the dread lord...

I just really liked that line. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I wish they would fix Banishing. It's sad it's such a (mostly) useless skill. And it's made worse because Mystic Adepts can only use the portion of their magic rating dedicated to spellcasting for Banishing tests. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Which is really lame.

[The Jopp]

I just really liked that line. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You might want to take notice that the spirit is not allowed to use edge to stop itself from being summoned and break free - but there is nothing stopping it from using edge to refuse doing things, or twist it to its own plan.

A rating 18 spirit has a logic and intuition of 18 - about TWICE the intelligence and intuition of Einstein and most likely most dragons.

IT WILL KNOW YOUR SOUL.

[Thanee]

Where's your problem?

With a Drain Resistance DP of 27 you have 9 hits on average. Spending a point of Edge to reroll means another 6 hits. That's 15 hits against a DV of 24 (summoning, not binding). Enough to stay awake even with an average Body (and thus 10 boxes of Physical Condition Monitor). With a Body of 9 (and thus 13 boxes of Physical Condition Monitor), i.e. Body 5 natural and a +4 Improve Attribute spell (nothing outrageous at that level for sure), there's still some leeway for rolling below average. There is a certain risk involved, since the variance is fairly high there.

Of course, you need one net hit on the summoning, too, but that seems equally likely.

Bye
Thanee

[pbangarth]

The Summonning Drain for F18 spirit is equal to twice the hits, which will fall somewhere around 6, giving a DV of 12. The OP was about a Great Form spirit, so we have to go on to Binding and Invoking.

To Bind the spirit, it gets 36 dice, giving about 12 hits, which doubles to 24 DV. Invoking the Great form adds 50% to this, so the Drain for Binding a Great Form F18 spirit is 36 DV. Unless you have a dice pool of 36 to resist Drain, this is an impossibility without Burning Edge. Even with enough dice and Edge rerolling, most cases of any character recently out of chargen cannot do it. So burning Edge is still against the rules.

Even if it is squeakily possible to get the required number of hits to survive, you are at the point where it is incredibly stupid and rash to risk it unless you burn Edge. It is incredibly stupid and rash because of the power differential between the summoner and the spirit. In such a case, many argue the GM is right to do the nasty to the player. Those who argue that it is unfair to burn Edge for NPCs because NPC Edge is for all intents and purposes an unlimited resource for the GM, whereas the player has a very limited and costly resource, have a point. But, this situation arises only when the player/PC wishes to overreach himself.

I have no sympathy for such a player. I may, as GM, let it happen just so I can jerk the player around with a Great Form being that is three or four times as smart as he is. (eg., area effect Engulf that does not avoid the PCs party.)

[DireRadiant]

Make sure to perform the summoning in a location aspected to the summoning Mage.

[karsh]

Hi dumpshock!

What about the Sacrificing Metamagic? I don't know how "evil" your character is, but you could use it to additionally reduce the drain.

One slightly off topic question:
How do you get Willpower 9?
I assume Dareadrenaline, Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Enhancement since I don't know any other ways to improve this attribute?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Make sure to perform the summoning in a location aspected to the summoning Mage.

The only problem with that is that if the area is aspected to the Mage's tradition, by default, the area is also aspected to teh spirit involved... does not seem like a win-win situation to me... Especially as the spirit will get to use those bonus dice as well as the mage does...

Summoning at Force 18 is pretty ludicrous though, as even at his base ability, the spirit is generally throwing as many, or more, dice as the summoner is... not a good recipe for success in my opinion... and heaven help the caster if the spirit gains more successes than the summoner (yes he could roll poorly, but he could also roll exceptionally well... I remember our mage summoning a Spirit once... the spirit gained 10 successes for 20dv in damage... was not a pretty sight)...

Keep the Faith

[JoelHalpern]

Make sure to perform the summoning in a location aspected to the summoning Mage.

Yes, an aspected location will help the summoning.
But will it help the Binding. The Spirit rolls F*2 dice to resist binding.
The summoner gets the aspect bonus for the location.
But the Spirit is present during the binding, I think.
Therefore, it adds the aspect to its force. So it adds twice the aspect to its dice to resist force.

Hence, in terms of binding, it appears that the aspected location actually makes it even harder to bind the spirit.

(How the player is going to succeed against 36 dice from the spirit to resist binding, even if can cope with the drain, is another question.)

Yours,
Joel M. Halpern

PS: About 1/3 of the time or so the spirit will roll well enough that a F18 Great Form will present the summoner with 42 or more drain. Good luck sir.

[Dakka Dakka]

Doesn't Aspected Background Count only add to Dice Pools involving Magic? Since the Spirit Rolls Force or Force*2 It wouldn't get a bonus.

The other thing is, do spirits have a tradition? I don't know. If they do this leans very much in the direction that spirits are an expression of the summoning mage's mind, whereas the rest of the book seems to lean more in the direction of them being separate entities which are summoned (read called) by the mage.

[Whipstitch]

I know what you mean but you get a very annoying problem in that case.

If the summoner “class” get to have his every whim countermanded by the summoned spirits edge why the hell would I want to play one?

This is irrelevant because "summoner" isn't a "class." Making your character into a one trick pony doesn't give you carte blanche to summon tremendously powerful spirits without fear of the spirit using the stats they are given by the RAW-- you build your runner and you take your chances, just like everyone else. Run of the mill spirits probably won't put up much of a fight when it comes to being summoned, but a force 18 monstrosity? At my table, it's going to depend a lot on context, tradition and how much you've been treating your spirits like the unpredictable NPCs that they are as opposed to treating them like expendable assets. If a shaman player wants to exchange tasks with a Force 18 Spirit in order to protect what is considered sacred ground by his tradition, that's one thing. But if the same shaman is just summoning the same spirit so that his buddy the Hermetic can try and play pokemon and use it for some other purpose? Things might get messy.

In any case, super high force spirits are something of a red herring regardless. Force 8+ uber spirits are hardly necessary to be effective summoner. I've played more than a few summoners in my time, and I've found that the most effective way to go is often just keeping a stable of bound Force 2-3 Great Forms with plenty of services available for utility/light combat and to summon the occasional force 5+ spirit on the fly when things get pretty heavy. Magicians are versatile and powerful even without the ability to conjure spirits capable of spanking a "regular" dragon.

[DireRadiant]

Yes, an aspected location will help the summoning.
But will it help the Binding. The Spirit rolls F*2 dice to resist binding.
The summoner gets the aspect bonus for the location.
But the Spirit is present during the binding, I think.
Therefore, it adds the aspect to its force. So it adds twice the aspect to its dice to resist force.

Hence, in terms of binding, it appears that the aspected location actually makes it even harder to bind the spirit.

(How the player is going to succeed against 36 dice from the spirit to resist binding, even if can cope with the drain, is another question.)

Yours,
Joel M. Halpern

PS: About 1/3 of the time or so the spirit will roll well enough that a F18 Great Form will present the summoner with 42 or more drain. Good luck sir.

Don't forget how long Binding takes. Will the spirit still be around? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Summoning and Binding are two distinct steps with different factors. You can always change locations to suit each step.

[Dakka Dakka]

Don't forget how long Binding takes. Will the spirit still be around? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

IIRC Binding is not subject to the "until next sunrise/sunset" rule. Even if it were, you could always project to north of the arctic circle or south of the antarctic circle. There you won't have sunrises/sunsets for quite some time