A little clarification on Spellcasting Options

[Andinel]

A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So if you cast a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits, only 3 of those hits count. In other words, Force has a limiting effect on spells—the more oomph you put into the spell, the better you can succeed with it. This limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell.

So... what uses of Edge does this cover? Is it only Edge to add dice to the dice pool? Or does rerolling all dice that didn't get a hit also count for this?

For example, say a character has 3 Edge and 12 Magic + Spellcasting to cast a Force 5 spell.
If the character gets 4 hits and uses Edge to reroll the other 8 dice for another 2 hits, does the spell have 6 hits or 5 hits?
Alternately, if the character spends Edge beforehand to roll 15 dice and gets 5 hits on Magic + Spellcasting and 1 hit on Edge, and gets another 2 hits from Rule of 6, does the spell have 7 hits?

[Dakka Dakka]

Rerolls are not affected, because you don't roll any Edge dice. Rerolled sixes only apply to sixes scored with the Edge dice. At least that is the RAW of it.

In your first example it would be 5 hits. In the second it would depend on whether the sixes came form the normal pool or Edge.

[Surukai]

But if edge is spent before the roll is made then rule of six applies to the entire dice pool right?

[Medicineman]

Rerolls are not affected, because you don't roll any Edge dice. Rerolled sixes only apply to sixes scored with the Edge dice. At least that is the RAW of it.

In your first example it would be 5 hits. In the second it would depend on whether the sixes came form the normal pool or Edge.

OK,but If you Use Edge first than all dice from the Pool obey the "Rule of 6 "
and IIRC than all successes count (you break the boundaries/Limit of the Force of Spell)

with a Dance beyond any Limits
Medicineman

[Andinel]

Let me pose another example. Say you cast at F5 and use Edge to add dice and get 6 hits normally + 1 hit from Edge dice. Is it 6 hits, then?

[Medicineman]

I Would Agree to that

HougH!
Medicineman

[Dakka Dakka]

Not by my reading of the rule. Only hits from Edge dice may exceed the Force cap. If you announce prior to rolling that you are using Edge to gain extra dice and exploding sixes, the exploding sixes of the original dice pool may be used to get the hits up to the cap, but only the exploding sixes of the edge dice may exceed the cap.

Example:
MAG(5)+Spellcasting(5)+EDG(3) comes up with
1,2,3,4,5,5,6,6 + 1,5,6
As such you get 4 normal hits, two of which may be rerolled, but the rerolls may only generate ONE additional hit (since those dice are subject to the cap). The other 6 in the EDG pool may be rerolled as long as another 6 comes up and any hit will add to the total.

I know it is a stupid and unwieldy rule but that's the way it is. Guess it is that way to make casting Improved Reflexes with 4 hits into a Force 1 Sustaining Focus very difficult and expensive. Even with Edge 8 three hits isn't that easy.

[otakusensei]

Not by my reading of the rule. Only hits from Edge dice may exceed the Force cap. If you announce prior to rolling that you are using Edge to gain extra dice and exploding sixes, the exploding sixes of the original dice pool may be used to get the hits up to the cap, but only the exploding sixes of the edge dice may exceed the cap.

Example:
MAG(5)+Spellcasting(5)+EDG(3) comes up with
1,2,3,4,5,5,6,6 + 1,5,6
As such you get 4 normal hits, two of which may be rerolled, but the rerolls may only generate ONE additional hit (since those dice are subject to the cap). The other 6 in the EDG pool may be rerolled as long as another 6 comes up and any hit will add to the total.

I know it is a stupid and unwieldy rule but that's the way it is. Guess it is that way to make casting Improved Reflexes with 4 hits into a Force 1 Sustaining Focus very difficult and expensive. Even with Edge 8 three hits isn't that easy.

I could see that, but wouldn't Rule of 6 rerolls themselves be considered edge successes as they would not exist without the expenditure of edge? Plus you'd essentially need to roll kosher, keeping the normal dice and the edge dice separate and then the exploded sixes separate for the reroll. I don't know about you, but I like to get the rolling done as quickly and simply as possible so we can get back to the action.

[Dakka Dakka]

I could see that, but wouldn't Rule of 6 rerolls themselves be considered edge successes as they would not exist without the expenditure of edge?

Yes, but the rule doesn't make a distinction between hits generated by normal dice and those generated by Edge but between Edge dice and other dice. Dice you roll again because of Edge are not Edge dice IMHO.

Plus you'd essentially need to roll kosher, keeping the normal dice and the edge dice separate and then the exploded sixes separate for the reroll. I don't know about you, but I like to get the rolling done as quickly and simply as possible so we can get back to the action.

I agree. That's why I said this is an unnecessarily complicated and unwieldy rule, it's RAW nonetheless.

[Draco18s]

Or we could say that its stupidly complicating matters and merely say that "if edge is used before rolling, the hit cap may be exceeded."

Because the rules never specify "edge dice" are different from "normal dice" when using edge.

[Dakka Dakka]

Or we could say that its stupidly complicating matters and merely say that "if edge is used before rolling, the hit cap may be exceeded."

I'd be glad if the rule was revised like that. But unfortunately this isn't the case (yet).

Because the rules never specify "edge dice" are different from "normal dice" when using edge.

This limitation* does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell.

*No more hits than Force
With spellcasting the BBB does state that edge dice are handled differently.

[Draco18s]

*No more hits than Force
With spellcasting the BBB does state that edge dice are handled differently.

My point was, that's the only place it does. No where else are "edge dice" treated differently than "non edge" dice in the same pool, nor does the book offer tips on how to track the two pools, or how exploding 6s work with regards to this.

[Dakka Dakka]

This just makes it more probable that the wording was the intention as well. As I said I'd prefer that any use of edge completely negated the cap and am contemplating to introduce such a houserule when I GM next time, but sadly this is not RAW.

[Shinobi Killfist]

This just makes it more probable that the wording was the intention as well. As I said I'd prefer that any use of edge completely negated the cap and am contemplating to introduce such a houserule when I GM next time, but sadly this is not RAW.

When something is poorly written I don't think you can say anything is RAW.

[Dakka Dakka]

It is not poorly written. Actually it is very precise and understandable. It is just that this rule differs from every other rule in the book concerning Edge or dice rolling in general, but this also applies to the spellcasting roll without Edge. I can't remember any other situation where hits are capped. This may be intentional or a mistake. We don't know. It is the Rule As Written though.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It is not poorly written. Actually it is very precise and understandable. It is just that this rule differs from every other rule in the book concerning Edge or dice rolling in general, but this also applies to the spellcasting roll without Edge. I can't remember any other situation where hits are capped. This may be intentional or a mistake. We don't know. It is the Rule As Written though.

No, it is poorly written and very imprecise. No where is edge dice defined as a separate phenomena. Edge dice can be referring just do the extra dice gained when using edge, those dice and any dice from an exploding 6, or the entire test since everything is now exploding are in a way edge dice. Every die in the pool is effected by the use of edge so they can all be said to be edge dice. Without a definition of "edge dice" or more precise language like saying when using edge to gain extra dice the extra dice gained from test and only the initial extra dice are exempt from this rule, it is not a precise rule. You have chosen an interpretation and decided that is the only interpretation that is valid, so that is raw to you. But since the term is never defined, a variety of interpretations can be valid until some form of clarification makes one of the interpretations RAW.

[Dakka Dakka]

Actually, Edge dice are described in the section about uses of Edge:

• You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count it as a hit and roll it again.
• You may declare the use of Edge after you have rolled for one test. In this case, you may roll a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute and add their hits to the test’s total. The Rule of Six (p. 62), however, applies only to the additional Edge dice rolled, not the original dice pool.

Underlining mine. How much more precise do you need a definition?

[Draco18s]

Note how in bullet two the only dice you're rolling is your Edge attribute and therefore it is simple to keep those dice separate for the Rule of 6 and the point is made that you don't add Edge, pick up your 6s, and roll that resulting sum.

Note how that bullet 1 gives all dice the Rule of 6, but somehow when used for casting spells this breaks:

Only edge dice surpass the Force limit, Rule of 6 is not mentioned (are Ro6 dice Edge dice?).

[DireRadiant]

Note how in bullet two the only dice you're rolling is your Edge attribute and therefore it is simple to keep those dice separate for the Rule of 6 and the point is made that you don't add Edge, pick up your 6s, and roll that resulting sum.

Note how that bullet 1 gives all dice the Rule of 6, but somehow when used for casting spells this breaks:

Only edge dice surpass the Force limit, Rule of 6 is not mentioned (are Ro6 dice Edge dice?).

So, when on p. 182 SR4A
"A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be
achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So if you cast a Force 3 spell and get
5 hits, only 3 of those hits count. In other words, Force has a limiting
effect on spells—the more oomph you put into the spell, the better
you can succeed with it. This limitation does not apply to Edge dice
that are used to boost a spell."

The question is, when it refers to "Edge" dice, and you have taken option of

"You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count it as a hit and roll it again."

Are all dice Edge dice or not for the purpose of exceeding the force limit?

An interesting note is that within the Edge use description itself there is the implication of different types of dice "All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled..." which does leave things open to differing ideas.

[Draco18s]

Are all dice Edge dice or not for the purpose of exceeding the force limit?

An interesting note is that within the Edge use description itself there is the implication of different types of dice "All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled..." which does leave things open to differing ideas.

Exactly DireRadiant.