BP, Karma, Priority, What's the best? Options

[Renmir]

First time post, sure to go down in flames.

Which is generally considered the system to use for munchkin builds? Does one char gen system favor combatants, while another favors mystics? Why is Karma only 750, instead of the 800 I would expect from 400BP? If you were a power gamer, trying to squeeze every bit of flexibility out of your new character, which system would you use?

Don't try to convince me not to powergame. My table is full of powergamers, and I'm going to have a hard time catching up as it is. I just don't want to be fodder when we start. I'm looking for honest opinions and experience on which of these system favors what type of characters, and suggestions on how to go about stretching every last char gen resource available. Thanks.

This post has been edited by Renmir: Feb 19 2010, 07:28 AM

[Udoshi]

Build Point generation encourages powergaming, because it is, in my opinion, poorly costed. It tends to lead to thinking like 'Oh. Do I want one rank of punching people so I don't have to default, or do I want twenty thousand grand worth of bullets'.

There are two versions of karmagen. The first is as-published, which is broken and typoed cause the devs are stupid and can't put out errata for the Runner's Companion. Its 750, because it was written and statted with the 4th anniversary edition costs in mind, namely ratingx5 attribute cost. As printed its 3, which is seriously overpowered.

BP-gen is brute force min-maxing. Karmagen is finesse min-maxing, but it makes you pay for every dice you get. On the flipside, if you want small pools, its much cheaper. I prefer karmagen in general, as long as its the Balanced Version, and makes transitioning to experience gain after game start a lot easier.

Don't know anything about priority gen. Haven't seen many posts about it here.

[FriendoftheDork]

BP favors high ratings in skills, attributes etc. since buying a skill of 6 cost as much as buying 6 skills at 1. Also it is best to do the extremes, which means having very high attributes and very low ones. The high ones costs tremendous amounts of karma later, while the low ones costs very little karma to improve to the mid level,

Karma system with 750 karma isn't bad, and the 1BP=2 karma conversion is not corrects. For example, buying a skill of 3 with karma costs 14 karma but with BPs it costs 12BPs (wich would be 24 karma). So for characters with many low skills/stats you can profit alot from using karma.


I haven't used priority system since SR2.

[toturi]

Usually the GM decides which character generation method he allows. From your post, I surmise that he might be allowing all 3, whichever you wish to use.

400 BP is the default method. It can be used to create pretty strong characters.

750 Karma is perhaps the second most popular method. Due to its mechanics, it tends to create well-rounded characters (excepting Knowledge skills) that cannot be surpassed using the 400 BP system. However, this is if the GM does not house rule certain costs (note: while there has been posts saying/asking that there be certain changes eg. Attribute to match SR4A, no free races. etc, coming via errata, there has yet been an official errata published).

Priority, I feel, is best left to those who are experienced and know what they are doing.

You can gain flexibility for your character in multiple ways. And the chargen methods favor certain ways more than others. A tweak to the character here and a slight change there, and another chargen method may well be better for this character. If you are asking for which chargen method might be better for a certain build, you could get a more definitive answer, but asking which method is better for powergaming... Well, each method lends itself to powergaming in a different way, you need to know how to do it or else it doesn't help.

[Neowulf]

Karma is more efficient for stats that don't get a metatype boost.

Edit- Strike that skill thing, I neglected to convert karma to bp, way too late for me to figure maths.

[Glyph]

Karmagen used to be, hands-down, the best system for powergaming, but SR4A changed that when it raised the cost of improving Attributes with Karma. Also, it was clarified that special Attributes are included in the cap (375 plus metatype cost) of how many points can be spent on Attributes. Karmagen favors - mundanes, either human, or metahumans where you are coasting on your Attribute-boosted stats rather than trying to raise them (in other words, an ork where you, say, just raise Body to 5 and keep Strength as 3, as opposed to a troll where you try to raise Strength to 9). It is not good for awakened characters unless you keep your Edge minimal, since you typically won't be able to get both special Attributes high without sacrificing some core Attributes.

Priority is a clunky system that doesn't have things you need such as specializations. Also, a good powergaming character will often have the equivalent of "Priority A" for a number of things. All in all, not a very useful alternative character creation system.

Build Points, while tending to be slightly less overall points than Karmagen, lets you use them more strategically. It is the go-to system if you want an awakened character (especially one with a decent Edge), or a character where you want to raise racially-modified Attributes higher (for example, the troll in the above example raising his Strength to 9 pays the same as a human raising his Strength to 5).

My overall strategy, if I were concentrating on powergaming, would be to make a nice, tight build with build points, then double-check it to see if it is legal and under 750 karma in Karmagen - if it is, then change it over to Karmagen and spend the "leftover" points.

[Surukai]

Priority system is "worst" for powergaming since doesn't minmax properly. (You only get magic 5, not all resources needed for maxed implants etc)

Most minmaxed monster characters seem to use BP since the linear cost makes it far better to burn all BP To max a few things instead of spreading out on multiple areas. (Have godlike 6 in one skill or be useless 2 in 3?)

My group uses Karmagen because it makes it the same rules for creating character as it is improving it later. That way you don't have to take "what's cheap in BP" at character generation and then go for "what's cheap in karma" once you start playing. You better start game with agi 5, charisma 1 and then raise charisma to 3 for just 25 karma than you are starting with agi 3, charisma 3 and then raising agility to 5 for 45 karma (the later character mysteriously loose 20 karma, or 3-4 adventures worth of gameplay just by not buying smart). With karmagen it doesn't matter what way you start since the same rules apply for improvement as it does at chargen.

Karma also makes high values more expensive while it is much cheaper on low values. That means you pay slightly more karma (than equivalent bp) to raise stuff to 5 and stats for the useful races that go beyond 6 while you get a discount (compared to BP) on getting that charisma 2 (or strength 2), utility skill or just character building skill (like Artisan, Escape Artist, etc.) As GM I prefer to see my players not get punished for being a little jack of all trades.

The downside of karma, aside from much more counting at chargen is the weirdness about other races. To say the race is free makes it quite strange and it seem standard is to charge BPx2 for races just like everything else that is translated directly from BP. This makes a lot more sense for the special character types like shape-shifters or sapient critters. I strongly suggest charging the race's BP-cost since you do get a lot of "free" stats and positive qualities. (Troll starting Body and Strength 5 would cost 140 karma to buy and BPx2 means you only pay 80 for that and get +1 reach, +1 armour and thermographic vision too)
Also, make sure you use Anniversary costs for karma (that is, Attributes cost x 5, not x3!!)

The reason it is 750 and not 800 is because since karma is a bit cheaper on the low-mid values and you are "supposed" to have charisma 2-3, not 1 etc. it evens out between karma and bp for a "typical character" at 750 karma instead of 800. The overall power of a karma character should be comparable with a bp character at 400 BP as long as you don't munchkin either type.

[Thanee]

What I seriously dislike about Karmagen is, that you have to buy your Knowledge skills, which generally leads to neglecting them once more.

The free points for Knowledge skills (and Contacts -- as a House Rule) are a really good thing, IMHO.

Also I totally dislike, that the Special Attributes are included...

These are the two issues I have with the system and which I would change (as a House Rule), personally.


But conceptually, Karmagen is the better method, because it is more balanced.

Bye
Thanee

[toturi]

My group uses Karmagen because it makes it the same rules for creating character as it is improving it later. That way you don't have to take "what's cheap in BP" at character generation and then go for "what's cheap in karma" once you start playing. You better start game with agi 5, charisma 1 and then raise charisma to 3 for just 25 karma than you are starting with agi 3, charisma 3 and then raising agility to 5 for 45 karma (the later character mysteriously loose 20 karma, or 3-4 adventures worth of gameplay just by not buying smart). With karmagen it doesn't matter what way you start since the same rules apply for improvement as it does at chargen.

The downside of karma, aside from much more counting at chargen is the weirdness about other races. To say the race is free makes it quite strange and it seem standard is to charge BPx2 for races just like everything else that is translated directly from BP. This makes a lot more sense for the special character types like shape-shifters or sapient critters. I strongly suggest charging the race's BP-cost since you do get a lot of "free" stats and positive qualities. (Troll starting Body and Strength 5 would cost 140 karma to buy and BPx2 means you only pay 80 for that and get +1 reach, +1 armour and thermographic vision too)
Also, make sure you use Anniversary costs for karma (that is, Attributes cost x 5, not x3!!)

The reason it is 750 and not 800 is because since karma is a bit cheaper on the low-mid values and you are "supposed" to have charisma 2-3, not 1 etc. it evens out between karma and bp for a "typical character" at 750 karma instead of 800. The overall power of a karma character should be comparable with a bp character at 400 BP as long as you don't munchkin either type.

I do not quite understand this. The OP is asking for how to powergame, not how to get a balanced character. So it should be "make sure you insist on using the published costs karma for Attributes as stated in Runner Companion and not the Anniversary costs and sticking to free racial costs for karma gen".

[Surukai]

I do not quite understand this. The OP is asking for how to powergame, not how to get a balanced character. So it should be "make sure you insist on using the published costs karma for Attributes as stated in Runner Companion and not the Anniversary costs and sticking to free racial costs for karma gen".

Ehm, right but isn't that kind of exploiting the intent of the karmagen and the anniversary costs is a newer book and should have priority even in RAW imho.

And, on a personal level. The GM will see how it is obviously broken and might turn down karmagen altogether if we use the RC printed costs and since I'm in favor of karmagen to encourage more balanced characters I couldn't speak for that. (And not forgetting that I misread the OPs intents and just spewed out my general thoughts on chargen pros and cons instead >.<)

[Saint Sithney]

Man, there was a bit of explaining there which didn't really pan out into knowledge. I'm going to break it down for you a little, guy.

I'm making a troll tank. I want body of 9 because that's what daddy likes.

So, under bp, I'm going to pay 40bp to be a troll.
Wicked. Now I've got a natural body of 5. I pay 40bp more to raise that stat to 9.
So, that's 80 bp for a body of 9.

Now, under karmagen, I get to be a troll for free. I just got it like that. No sweat.
Body 5 again, and I want to raise it to 9. That's going to cost me 30 + 35 + 40 +45 karma or just 150 karma.
Not a terrible exchange rate, but it's pretty costy when it comes time to buy some strength too.

Also, with bp, I still have 160 more bp I can potentially spend on attributes.
Whereas, with karma, I've burned nearly half my total attribute budget on a single stat. Nuts to that, brother.
Unless I can spend half karma + 2x(BP metatype cost) like with the special spendy races... That'd at least let me weight heavier to attributes on startup..

[FriendoftheDork]

Man, there was a bit of explaining there which didn't really pan out into knowledge. I'm going to break it down for you a little, guy.

I'm making a troll tank. I want body of 9 because that's what daddy likes.

So, under bp, I'm going to pay 40bp to be a troll.
Wicked. Now I've got a natural body of 5. I pay 40bp more to raise that stat to 9.
So, that's 80 bp for a body of 9.

Now, under karmagen, I get to be a troll for free. I just got it like that. No sweat.
Body 5 again, and I want to raise it to 9. That's going to cost me 30 + 35 + 40 +45 karma or just 150 karma.
Not a terrible exchange rate, but it's pretty costy when it comes time to buy some strength too.

Also, with bp, I still have 160 more bp I can potentially spend on attributes.
Whereas, with karma, I've burned nearly half my total attribute budget on a single stat. Nuts to that, brother.
Unless I can spend half karma + 2x(BP metatype cost) like with the special spendy races... That'd at least let me weight heavier to attributes on startup..

I almost though you meant the BP system was more costly here... 80BP for body 9 is probably the least costly way to get body 9 in shadowrun (except maybe special races).

Karma system as written should probably be adjusted quite a bit. It works fairly balanced if you want high scores in your racial stats (as it has no discounts for the higher stats) but means you get attribute points for free if you don't mind mediocre racial stats. So there is hardly any reason not to make an elf, orc or dwarf instead of human except for fluff reasons (easily overcome by human looking quality) they are free.

In my game I used normal costs for metas (double BP in karma), but made up for it by allowing one to raise attributes as if racial modifiers were augmented attributes - thus the cost for a troll with +4 body to buy body 6 would be the same for a human buying body 2. Also, I raised the cost of attributes to new rating*5 (before the errata), and gave out free karma for language and knowledge skills just as in the BP system 2(intuition+logic)(*3) karma IIRC, in a slightly sexier formula.

[Medicineman]

According to Errattaed Karma Systems
all the Metavariants cost now the same amount in Karma than in BP
(so no more Trolls for Free)

with a Dance for Free
Medicineman

[toturi]

Ehm, right but isn't that kind of exploiting the intent of the karmagen and the anniversary costs is a newer book and should have priority even in RAW imho.

And, on a personal level. The GM will see how it is obviously broken and might turn down karmagen altogether if we use the RC printed costs and since I'm in favor of karmagen to encourage more balanced characters I couldn't speak for that. (And not forgetting that I misread the OPs intents and just spewed out my general thoughts on chargen pros and cons instead >.<)

There is an explicit karma cost table in Runner's Companion and there is no errata on that. The karma gen system in RC does not reference the karma costs in SR4, therefore even if SR4A is a newer book and is an update on SR4, there should be no implication on the karma gen system in RC.

There is nothing obviously broken about karma gen as printed, at least not any more so than BP gen. I can make a BP gen character that comes out costing more in karma and vice versa.

[Surukai]

There is an explicit karma cost table in Runner's Companion and there is no errata on that. The karma gen system in RC does not reference the karma costs in SR4, therefore even if SR4A is a newer book and is an update on SR4, there should be no implication on the karma gen system in RC.

But it is called karma system and as far as I know, Karma is karma. Why would it be called karma generation if it actually used some own private currency that just happens to have similar sounding name? So, my counter argument would be that karma gen uses the karma exchange rates at character generation just like they do for awarded karma and those are updated in SR4A and should be used over the ones in the old printed RC.

My perceived intended use for this is to have the same point system for generation as in game to remove the "buy that for karma later, it's cheaper or you must max this at character generation because you can't afford it later"-problem.

According to Errattaed Karma Systems
all the Metavariants cost now the same amount in Karma than in BP
(so no more Trolls for Free)

Where can I read this errata?

[Medicineman]

Where can I read this errata?
Its allready printed in the German books,
but I don't know where you can find it here ?

with a german (not bavarian) Dance
Medicineman

[DireRadiant]

Don't try to convince me not to powergame. My table is full of powergamers, and I'm going to have a hard time catching up as it is. I just don't want to be fodder when we start. I'm looking for honest opinions and experience on which of these system favors what type of characters, and suggestions on how to go about stretching every last char gen resource available. Thanks.

BP for the group will tend to keep them closer together, it'll be less extreme range then karmagen. I suspect priority might even put the group closer together. Fundamentally, none of the choices really keep any group balanced by itself if all the PC are built on a power game basis. Mechanically the powergamer will spend a third to half their build points (karmagen or BP) on basics and blow the rest on getting a huge pool at what they want. The only way to handle this is to reduce the available build pool by at least a third.

[toturi]

But it is called karma system and as far as I know, Karma is karma. Why would it be called karma generation if it actually used some own private currency that just happens to have similar sounding name? So, my counter argument would be that karma gen uses the karma exchange rates at character generation just like they do for awarded karma and those are updated in SR4A and should be used over the ones in the old printed RC.

My perceived intended use for this is to have the same point system for generation as in game to remove the "buy that for karma later, it's cheaper or you must max this at character generation because you can't afford it later"-problem.

Karma is karma. But the exchange rate for the items you want for karma is different before and during the game. If it remains unerrataed in the english version, I perceive it to be intended to mirror the same "buy that for karma later, it's cheaper or you must max this at character generation because you can't afford it later" feature as BP.

[Renmir]

Thanks for the help here guys. I honestly expected this thread to crash and burn early on due to fanatical hate for powergamers. Instead, I got some really useful information.

The GM isn't an idiot. He's going to notice something is out of line if I use the 3x instead of 5x for ability costs. Yeah, I want to exploit every potential advantage I can, but I need to have a leg to stand on when presenting the character, and he's going to make 'common sense' rulings if there's ambiguity on a rule. That would mean that under Karmagen, I may be paying for my metatype, and I will be paying 5x for my attribute increases. I might be able to make an argument for Racial Stats as Base Stats for attribute purchases (FriendoftheDork's suggestion), if I pay for my metatype.

From what everyone has said, it sounds like BP is better if you want some maxed stats, and Karma is better if you want fine grain control of everything but attributes. The exception in both these cases seems to be the special character types. I do like Glyph's suggestion of building in BP and checking legality in Karma. He mentions that BP is better than Karma if you want an Awakened character. Does this mesh with everyone elses thoughts? If I wanted to make a mage, or a stealth type, or a TM, all with at least some competency with firearms and a decent reaction attribute, should I stick to BP for the exceptional attributes?

[Draco18s]

My tip:

Find something to be good at it and twink the fuck out of it.

Some suggestions:

Abusing the stacking modifiers for social interactions (aka Pornomancer)
Abusing the various ways to have high Edge, and getting 8 (aka Mr. Lucky)
Abuse the throwing rules and bean people with grenades (two for the price of one attack).
Abuse adept powers for breaking objects and high strength race (troll or bear-shifter--you know you want to be able to break through walls like the cool aid man, rendering any barrier the GM can throw at you null and void).
Abuse suppressive fire, find a gun with near-infinite ammo capacity,* full auto mode, and just lay out the lead

*Extended clip, extra clip, and quick draw gets you close enough: 190% the original ammo capacity of the gun and you can eject one clip while firing from the other. Bonus points for using gel rounds, which step up the damage as you're not getting any net hits, and will generally be firing on targets with fewer stun boxes than physical.

[Ancient History]

If I drank, I would drink until I forget Runner's Companion exists.

[Dragnar]

I still maintain Unwired is worse, but it seems I'm in a minority there.
But yes, Runner's Companion was terrible.

[Draco18s]

I still maintain Unwired is worse, but it seems I'm in a minority there.
But yes, Runner's Companion was terrible.

I like what they tried to do with both books, but yes. Ultimately they were poorly done.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I still maintain Unwired is worse, but it seems I'm in a minority there.
But yes, Runner's Companion was terrible.

I don't know... I enjoyed both of them...
Some things need some tweaking in Errata (when is that never the case), but otherwise, not so bad IMHO...

Keep the Faith

[Omenowl]

You can get pretty high with priority.

Priority 1 for special attributes (human)
Priority 2 for magician
Priority 3 Attributes
Priority 4 Skills
Priority 5 Resources

This way you can get an edge of 7 and a magic of 6
The scary part is magician is not counted towards your 35 points of postive qualities under the priority system.