Your suggestions for Street Sam - 500BP Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well, I was talking alot more about equipment selection. 250k has gotten him eyes, ears, and a cybertorso that doesn't do anything. From what he said he is saving alot of that for beta gear, but personally I'd rather be able to survive my first run than save on essence a little bit for a character in which essence doesn't really matter.

It seems to me like he is being very over-cautious with his essence. (Betaware, biocompatability), and that is going to lead to a very sub-par character (Unless awakened or you go to great lengths to make an unaugmented mundane).

I mean .4 essence and 16k is enough to get him +2 agi which is +2 to combat.

Also important to note that this 500 BP Street Sam only has a single IP. Dude is going to have trouble with cops with wired reflexes I.

Then again, alot of equipment is left out, so many drugs will be helping supplement that.

Huh he has move by wire 2, so he has 3 passes. Also he gets to save his cash and will add an arm in game. Personally I'd ditch the torso and get 2 arms both with 9 agility and maybe even both with gyro. I loves me 3 points of recoil comp. I actually think the street sam in SR4A is decent, its somewhat silly built in that she could have got a 9 agility in the arms for like $600 and no additional essence loss and a gyro would fit and cost only 3 more BP, but other than that somewhat solid.

[Karoline]

Oh, I totally missed the MBW.

Should point out that a rating 2 MBW is above availability 12, which OP said was the availability being stuck with (I believe).

Still seems way less wow than I was expecting for 500 BP.

An idea of just how much money is being saved would be great, because if sammy is going to load up on 150k worth of ware as soon as game starts, then that is honestly an entirely different character.

Oh, should also point out that the torso is lowering body here. For anything that involves the entire body (Like soaking damage) it'll be (4+(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) /2=6 body. Remember stuff like that when taking cyber parts.

[Squinky]

Torsos aren't added in to the average :

From the FAQ:

[/i]If a character did replace all of his limbs, then yes, his Physical attributes would be 3 (assuming the cyberlimbs are not augmented), since you use the average of the limbs' attributes.[i]

The torso is just a shell. Its still a great buy essence wise if you are looking for armor. It beats out dermal plating and sheathing and leaves you with enough capacity to add some other stuff, like a nanohive.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Maybe I'm missing something but how does your quote alter what Karoline said. It looks to me like you still average in the torso.

[Squinky]

I guess the operative word is limb or limbs. Torsos aren't limbs and don't have the capacity to keep up with cyberlimb attribute enhancement anyway.


Edit--------

Aw crap. i just read up on the rules in the base book. Everything was supporting my view until I got to the example where the cyber torso had its own stats.

Crap. I preferred being ignorant on this one. I'm not certain you could really be viable with a Torso now, it doesn't have the capacity to keep up.

[Dakka Dakka]

Exactly. With or without torso and head you need to keep your natural attributes high since they will be part of the average or minimum, if they are used for completing an action.

[Karoline]

I guess the operative word is limb or limbs. Torsos aren't limbs and don't have the capacity to keep up with cyberlimb attribute enhancement anyway.


Edit--------

Aw crap. i just read up on the rules in the base book. Everything was supporting my view until I got to the example where the cyber torso had its own stats.

Crap. I preferred being ignorant on this one. I'm not certain you could really be viable with a Torso now, it doesn't have the capacity to keep up.

Exactly, a cybertorso is a cyberlimb and is thus considered a 'limb' for some reason. The example on averaging stats when you have cyber I think even specifically includes a torso into the calculation. So, if you want the torso to not drag down your other stats, you need to pay to have a high str/bod/agi torso.

Like you said, otherwise there isn't much reason to get the actual armor 'ware as opposed to a cybertorso with a couple levels of armor and the prospect of raising it to level 4 with minimal cost.

[Shinobi Killfist]

If you have a high strength torso, you do crunches like a fiend. It makes me jealous. Unless you plan on going full borg you need your normal stats to be high. I have seen a full borg and in some ways it was scary since he could put 1's in all the stats but reaction. That is a lot of point saving for a sam. But lots of things you'd be spending those points on like bioware you can't use, so not fantastic.

Though seriously for this character 2 arms before a torso IMO. That way you don't have to average your agility or strength when using assault riffles and LMGs or when fighting with unarmed combat.

[Karoline]

If you have a high strength torso, you do crunches like a fiend. It makes me jealous. Unless you plan on going full borg you need your normal stats to be high. I have seen a full borg and in some ways it was scary since he could put 1's in all the stats but reaction. That is a lot of point saving for a sam. But lots of things you'd be spending those points on like bioware you can't use, so not fantastic.

Though seriously for this character 2 arms before a torso IMO. That way you don't have to average your agility or strength when using assault riffles and LMGs or when fighting with unarmed combat.

I wonder if I still have... Yeah, here we go. A partial character I threw together to point out some of the absurdaties you could manage with cyberlimbs. The character isn't CG legal, but could get the non-CG legal stuff with starting cash fairly easily.

[ Spoiler ]

Human: 0
Bod:1 0 Str:1 0 Log:2 10 Edge:5 40
Agi:1 0 Cha:3 20 Wil:4 30 Ess:0.2
Rea:5(6) 40 Int:4 30 Ini:9(10) IP:2

Qualities:
Restricted Gear 5

Equipment:
Right Cyberarm: base cost 15000
Customized Str 6 +4500
Customized Agi 6 +4500
Enhanced Agi 3 [3] +750
Enhanced Str 3 [3] +750
Armor 4 [8] +1200
Other stuff [1]
Final Stats: 9 agi/9 str/3 bod/4 armor/26700

Left Cyberarm: base cost 15000
Armor 4 [8] +1200
Enhanced Bod 4 [4] +800
Other stuff [3]
Final Stats: 3 agi/3 str/7 bod/4 armor/17000

Left Cyberleg: base cost 15000
Armor 4 [8] +1200
Enhanced Bod 4 [4] +800
Other stuff [8]
Final Stats: 3 agi/3 str/7 bod/4 armor/17000

Right Cyberleg: base cost 15000
Armor 4 [8] +1200
Enhanced Bod 4 [4] +800
Other stuff [8]
Final Stats: 3 agi/3 str/7 bod/4 armor/17000

Effective Bod = (1 + 3 + 7 + 7 + 7)/5 = 5
Effective Str/Agi for combat = 9
Effective Str/Agi for most other things = 3
Effective 'natural' armor = 16/16
Effective Agi for full body activites = (9 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 1)/5 = 3.8 = 3 (Can be increased to 4 for a simple 1500)
Effective Str for full body activites = (9 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 1)/5 = 3.8 = 3 (Can be increased to 4 for a simple 1500)

Alpha Wired reflexes 22000

Heavy Military Armor 20000
Military Helmet 10000

Total costs: 129700

Effective Armor: 34/32
Effective Bod for soaking: 5
Total Dice to soak damage: 39/37
Average hits on a soak test: 13/12

Good times.

Edit: And of course possible to get much more absurd than that. Was purposefully trying to keep costs relatively low. Edit2: Was also more focused on the armor than the 'getting good stats' part. Could easily drop the armor to 2 and raise the stats to a bunch of 9s to give an average of 7 or 8 for physical stats, or throw in a bunch of capacity based things. Whatever, very modular (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Omenowl]

By my understanding reading cyberlimbs is you cannot use the optimized option except to match your current stats if they are above 3. It takes cyberlimb attribute enhancements otherwise and you are limited to 3 without a cybertorso. So this street sam would be capped at 6 for strength.

[Squinky]

I've been having bad luck regarding cyberlimb rules lately, but I can see the point Omenowl has. I've typically played it Karoline's way, and reading it again it seems to support both views.

[Karoline]

I see where Omenowl is coming from is well, but the way I read it

Standard cyberlimbs come with Body, Strength, and Agility
attributes of 3 (see Cyberlimbs, p. 335, SR4). While these basic
attributes are adequate for the average human or elf, they are underpowered
for the natural physiques of many dwarfs, orks, and
trolls—as well as exceptionally large and physical fit humans and
elves. Customization allow cyberlimb attribute ratings to be increased
by tailoring the limb to user’s overall size and musculature.
Since these customized cyberlimbs need to be designed to fit their
user’s body, they are more expensive than the basic models and are
not covered by medical insurances.

is all fluff explaining why someone would want to get customized cyberware. It doesn't provide a single rule or state directly that having a high str/bod/agi is required, it simply seems to indicate so (Agility in particular seems like an odd requirement as that has far less to do with the build of your body than your control over your muscles)

Meanwhile, the next paragraph

Customized cyberlimbs come with Body, Strength, and
Agility attributes that may exceed the standard cyberlimb attribute
rating of 3. Each customized cyberlimb may have a starting
Body, Strength, and Agility attribute of up to the character’s
natural attribute maximum (see pp. 62 and 73, SR4). Each point
of increment to an attribute above 3 raises the limb’s Availability
rating by 1 point and adds 1,500¥ to the final cost, but does not
take up any Capacity. Further increases above the natural attribute
maximum and up to the augmented maximum must be handled as
cyberlimb enhancements, with the standard Capacity and nuyen
costs (see Cyberlimb Enhancements, p. 335, SR4).

which does provide actual rules for the limbs only ever mentions natural maxes as being a limit for cyberlimb customization.

So yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but I think it is intended that only natural max (Thus what you could physically fit on your body) is a limit, not what stats you currently have. As I said, agility in particular supports this view as high agility is utterly independent of build.