Movement speeds, I guess that's why they call them RUNNERS Options

[hobgoblin]

a high enough force spirit can bring a stationary brick to warp 10...

[Karoline]

It's likely more akin to the quick crouch-walk that a soldier uses while clearing rooms or shooting while moving.


Also, to kill some time, I statted out a base 400bp SURGE troll mage char using possession traditions who can break mach 2.5 on foot.
Shit is gobbles.

As stated, when you throw magic into the mix, you throw real world comparisons out. A high force spirit can propel an average human to near mach speeds.

[Warlordtheft]

You don't full move each IP. You full move each combat turn, no matter how many IPs your turn breaks down into.

Yeah, I know. This is looking at it as an option (anti-RAW). The silly thing about RAW is that a 1 IP character moves his full move, while a 4 IP character moves 1/4 during their IP. This leads to the 1IP character being able to charge another character when the 2 IP would only cove half the distance. This is the only inconsistency in the movement rules in SR4A.

[Warlordtheft]

So a troll with skimmer disks starts out moving 70m/ct, and can sprint on top of that?

Let us math this bitch out.

4 IP, max DP, a Force 12 Air Elemental backing with Movement...

211.2 kph * 12 = 2534.4 kph or approx. Mach 2.

Pretty good for a running record, imo.

Yes, but what is his ramming damage? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[DireRadiant]

All movement during a turn are Declarations of movement. The resolution of whether or not the declared characters action is successful is resolved by the end of the combat turn. Not by IP. Don't confuse the OOC action of a player declaring the movement with the IC actions and results.

[hobgoblin]

heck, while a rpg sorts things in neat sections, real life have everything happen all at once.

the rpgs that tries to emulate the latter, often end up with inconsistencies like having a vehicle one was about to enter be blown up (or did it blow up right after one entered?), meaning a action was basically wasted.

[X-Kalibur]

Yeah, I know. This is looking at it as an option (anti-RAW). The silly thing about RAW is that a 1 IP character moves his full move, while a 4 IP character moves 1/4 during their IP. This leads to the 1IP character being able to charge another character when the 2 IP would only cove half the distance. This is the only inconsistency in the movement rules in SR4A.

They declare movement, and then it is broken up, giving the guy with 4IP the chance to cock-block the charge by simply moving out of the way on IP2 or 3.

[Muspellsheimr]

The problem is there are two different rules in the book. One (Under sprint) says that the bonus from sprint lasts the entire CT, and the other (under movement) says that the bonus lasts only until the person's next IP.

No, actually. Nothing under Movement 'resets' your movement rate during a Combat Turn as you insist on claiming. It only provides rules for figuring out exactly how far someone travels in a turn or pass if modes of movement are fixed. It in no way overrides the movement bonus of Sprint actions, which are stackable, and provide a flat bonus of 2m per hit, over a Combat Turn.

[kjones]

Another thing that makes no sense within the granularity of the rules - grenade detonation. If you throw a grenade, it detonates at the beginning your next pass. Therefore, if I have 1 IP, the grenade is on a 3-second fuse, but if I turn on my wired reflexes to get 2 IP, the grenade is now on a 1.5-second fuse.

Should this be houseruled? (Or have I been doing this wrong? Or does this deserve its own thread?)

[hobgoblin]

Another thing that makes no sense within the granularity of the rules - grenade detonation. If you throw a grenade, it detonates at the beginning your next pass. Therefore, if I have 1 IP, the grenade is on a 3-second fuse, but if I turn on my wired reflexes to get 2 IP, the grenade is now on a 1.5-second fuse.

Should this be houseruled? (Or have I been doing this wrong? Or does this deserve its own thread?)

not exactly. It says that the grenade detonates at the throwers initiative score, during the next initiative pass. It does not say that said thrower have to have actions during that pass.

so if your character have one pass, and is fighting someone that has two, you could throw a grenade during your pass, and it would detonate during the second pass, at your initiative score.

[Karoline]

No, actually. Nothing under Movement 'resets' your movement rate during a Combat Turn as you insist on claiming. It only provides rules for figuring out exactly how far someone travels in a turn or pass if modes of movement are fixed. It in no way overrides the movement bonus of Sprint actions, which are stackable, and provide a flat bonus of 2m per hit, over a Combat Turn.

Go read the thread I linked to where I quoted the rules that do indeed indicate you reset your movement speed, and where I detail it all out very clearly. I don't feel like looking up and re-explaining the rules to you if you can't be bothered to read what I've posted on the subject before insulting me.

[JoelHalpern]

All movement during a turn are Declarations of movement. The resolution of whether or not the declared characters action is successful is resolved by the end of the combat turn. Not by IP. Don't confuse the OOC action of a player declaring the movement with the IC actions and results.

This is a great theory, but I have trouble matching it with the rest of the rules.
A character can run and attack.
A 1 IP character has their attack resolved during IP 1 of a turn. It has effects which change the actions of folks on IPs 2, 3, and 4.
(Unless SR4A really changed the way movement and attacks interact in combat, in which case I apologize for this post.)
So you can't say that the move, which ended before the attack, did not finish until the end of the combat turn.
At least not say it in a way I understand.

Yours,
Joel

[Muspellsheimr]

Go read the thread I linked to where I quoted the rules that do indeed indicate you reset your movement speed, and where I detail it all out very clearly. I don't feel like looking up and re-explaining the rules to you if you can't be bothered to read what I've posted on the subject before insulting me.

Go read the thread you linked to where you referenced the rules saying that, & I quoted the rules not saying that.

[kjones]

not exactly. It says that the grenade detonates at the throwers initiative score, during the next initiative pass. It does not say that said thrower have to have actions during that pass.

so if your character have one pass, and is fighting someone that has two, you could throw a grenade during your pass, and it would detonate during the second pass, at your initiative score.

That makes more sense from a game balance perspective, but even less sense from a realism perspective. If I throw a grenade at you, it has a 3-second fuse, unless you have Wired Reflexes, in which case it's a 1.5 second fuse?

[Draco18s]

That makes more sense from a game balance perspective, but even less sense from a realism perspective. If I throw a grenade at you, it has a 3-second fuse, unless you have Wired Reflexes, in which case it's a 1.5 second fuse?

Another good reason to have 4 initiate passes all the time: its not just for movement now.

[kjones]

Another good reason to have 4 initiate passes all the time: its not just for movement now.

Why four? Is that a hard maximum?

[Axl]

Yes, four IPs is the maximum.

[Emy]

edit: nevermind, got some rules confused

Actually, while I'm here... how well would this work?

Add 2 meters per hit gained from the sprinting test to the movement in the current IP only. This means:

1) It works with the requirement that you have to use a sprinting action during each IP.
2) It adds the right amount of distance to the total distance that you can move in the turn. (Running Rate)
3) It doesn't require time travel.

[Warlordtheft]

Yes, four IPs is the maximum.

Matrix is 5........via a technomance ability and IIRC some piece of headware.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

That makes more sense from a game balance perspective, but even less sense from a realism perspective. If I throw a grenade at you, it has a 3-second fuse, unless you have Wired Reflexes, in which case it's a 1.5 second fuse?

I don't understand. It will explode on the next IP, doesn't matter if anybody has extra IP's or not. If you throw a grenade at the third IP, it will explode in the fourth. If you throw it at the fourth IP, it will explode at the first IP of the next turn.

[Draco18s]

I don't understand. It will explode on the next IP, doesn't matter if anybody has extra IP's or not. If you throw a grenade at the third IP, it will explode in the fourth. If you throw it at the fourth IP, it will explode at the first IP of the next turn.

His point was that if the combat is between a unagumented character and one who has 2 IPs, then the fuse is 1.5 seconds long.
However if the combat is between two unagumented characters then the fuse is 3 seconds long.
Which is why I suggested 4 IP all the time.

[kjones]

I don't understand. It will explode on the next IP, doesn't matter if anybody has extra IP's or not. If you throw a grenade at the third IP, it will explode in the fourth. If you throw it at the fourth IP, it will explode at the first IP of the next turn.

I understand the "there are always 4 IPs" perspective, but even that has its problems. Let's say there's a battle between two people, each of whom has 1 IP. They both shoot each other twice (SA) in the first 0.75 seconds of the round, and then stand there and do nothing for 2.25 seconds.

You could argue that it should be re-fluffed, with their actions spread out over the entire turn, but that doesn't make sense either - if a third guy comes in that has 4 IPs, he can spend the last three of them reacting to stuff that they did in the first IP.

AAH I HATE SHADOWRUN

[DireRadiant]

All actions for a combat turn are not resolved until the end of the combat turn. During a Combat Turn it is all declarations of intent. That is the nature of all turn based resolution systems.

[hobgoblin]

remember one thing, the fuse time of the grenade is freely adjustable, it just defaults, pr the rules, to next IP after the throw.

this could be that the thrower tries to set it to the shortest interval that will hopefully catch any reflexively fast targets before they can do anything more fancy then go "oh crud!", on instinct. Hopefully the thrower will get it far enough away that he is not caught in the blast.

still, the multiple actions in a round thing probably worked better as a concept back when it came out of the initiative roll, and the best roll could buy you multiple actions before anyone else got anything done. But as game balance and fun came into consideration, the rule that everyone was to do one thing before the rest of the actions where to resolve came into being. This while the rule that a combat round lasted a set amount of time stayed, making things odd if one looked at it closely.

btw, i just reminded myself of the sla way.

there you could have up to 5 passes in a round, but they where staggered like a pyramid.

if you had 1 pass, you did it on pass 3.
if you had 2, it was 1 and 5, or 2 and 4.
3 passes, and you got 1, 3 and 5.
4 passes, 1, 2, 4, 5.
5 passes, all 5 of them.

[Draco18s]

I understand the "there are always 4 IPs" perspective, but even that has its problems. Let's say there's a battle between two people, each of whom has 1 IP. They both shoot each other twice (SA) in the first 0.75 seconds of the round, and then stand there and do nothing for 2.25 seconds.

1st pass, player A: I shoot *spends 30 seconds resolving the roll*
1st pass, player B: I shoot *spends 30 seconds resolving the roll*
2nd pass: nothing *GM spends 5 seconds asking if anyone is doing anything in passes 2 through 4*
3rd pass: nothing *0 seconds*
4th pass: nothing *0 seconds*

Voila. You just resolved a full combat turn with 4 IPs in the same time it took to do 1. They might be standing around for 2.25 seconds in game, but table time is negligible.