New qualities: What gives or removes notoriety? Options

[Andinel]

SR4A p. 265 gives us a list of positive qualities that remove 1 notoriety and negative qualities that give 1 notoriety at character creation. What about the qualities in the rest of the books? I don't think there's a list anywhere for starting notoriety modification other than the small list given on p.265.

Positive Qualities: Blandness, First Impression, Lucky
Negative Qualities: Addiction, Bad Luck, Combat Paralysis, Elf Poser, Gremlins, Incompetent, Infirm, Ork Poser, Scorched, SINner (criminal SIN only), Spirit Bane, Uncouth, Uneducated

[Garou]

I think Debt should give a notoriety point, that would be removed when you paid the debt.

[Karoline]

Nearly everything negative gives you a point of notoriety. This is especially true if it can be observed or somehow inferred or it represents some sort of past failing.

Addiction gives it to you because it isn't hard to figure out that someone is addicted to X. Combat Paralysis gives it because it is easy to notice that someone freezes up in combat. Scorched represents some sort of great past failure, and so people might know about it. Spirit bane can be seen on your aura.

Basically if it in some way hinders you (Every negative quality) and can be found out about, then it is worth notoriety. So paraplegic, quadriplegic, in debt, wanted, augmentation addiction.... Really a shorter list would likely be what negative qualities don't give you a point of notoriety.

Another way to think of it, is look at the quality and ask yourself "Could I figure out if someone had this, and if so, would I find this desirable in someone I'm going to run with?"

So, In-Debt can likely be found out by asking around, and likely isn't desirable in a team-mate, because he is so strapped for cash he may turn traitor on you for an extra share of the reward. If everything someone touches breaks because they have the gremlins quality, you really don't want them around your own fancy gear, and so on.

[Karoline]

Just some quick guesses on stuff from RC:

Bi-polar
Computer Illiterate
Cranial Bomb
Day Job
Distinctive Style
Dependants
Enemy
Flashbacks
Illiterate
In-Debt
Liar
Mental Handicap
Paranoia
Paraplegic
Poor Self Control
Quadriplegic
Reduced Sense
Signature
Records on File
Sensory Overload Syndrome
Wanted

About 80% of the stuff on the list. Some are arguable, and arguably I should have added in some I left out. All of these however seem to have a combination of not all that hard to tell, and very much undesirable in a running partner.

[Bugfoxmaster]

I personally disagree entirely that qualities should add to Notoriety or detract from it... it seems sort of silly to me - whoever heard of you getting a bonus to intimidate because you're "combat paralyzed"? Furthermore, notoriety doesn't represent, by what I can see, peoples' reactions to having to work with you, but instead a sort of "how much of a scary guy are you?" factor - thus the intimidation bonus and the rep. In my view, while some things like Signature and Distinctive Style should add to Public Awareness, and some like Bad Rep and Vindictive could add to Notoriety, I really don't think most qualities shoul play in at all. Also, the mechanics in general are sort of ridiculous, but I'll not go into that.

[CollateralDynamo]

A similar discussion was had in this thread. The conclusion of the thread basically states that the notoriety rules are kind of broken for a number of reasons.

1) Notoriety adds to your Intimidation bonus. In some cases, this could make sense, but for things such as quadriplegic, you are hardly more scary then an average individual. But at the same time, you are notorious as "that freak what with no arms and that", so you would logically get some sort of in game point.

2) Since you sum up notoriety and street cred and divide to figure out how well known you are, you need to watch both of these numbers very closely as a runner. You become too well known, you can no longer run in the "shadows". Therefore, you need to look for ways to burn off that street cred you are getting from karma. How do you do that? Why you rack up notoriety of course! Four points of street cred negate one of notoriety (I believe, I'm AFB right now). So, how do we gain notoriety? By publicly killing people in a mall of course! Now, we take my really good street cred, burn it and get rid of the notoriety, and now that mad gunmen who just killed a family in a crowded mall is LESS well known. Wait...what?

So, to make a long story...less long, the notoriety system is a little messed up. You should have some sort of system in place as GM, but perhaps eyeballing it is a better rule then something harder and faster.

[Karoline]

Yea, I agree that the SC/Notor system doesn't really work all that well, but if you tweak it some, it can. For instance (among other things) change Notor to not give an intimidation bonus, and instead be a 'This is the level of how much you don't want to hire/work with this person' stat. Basically people won't want to work with you both because you blew up the van of kittens to destroy the orphanage, and because you're paralyzed from the neck down.

[Saint Sithney]

If I ran into a quadriplegic supercriminal, I would be scared of him. That dude probably has to do things twice as viscous just to keep his rep up. Sort of like Griselda Blanco turned up to 11.

Likewise, if I know someone is a junky or otherwise desperate and unpredicitable I'll be more likely to come to the conclusion that this twist could pop me. Finally, if I know they're going to have to cover their tracks, because they've got a public face or loved ones to go home to, my first thought is going to be, "this person will not hesitate to kill me unless I do a damn good job of convincing them to leave me alive."

So, they could work out as intimidation in some situations..

[Draco18s]

2) Since you sum up notoriety and street cred and divide to figure out how well known you are, you need to watch both of these numbers very closely as a runner. You become too well known, you can no longer run in the "shadows". Therefore, you need to look for ways to burn off that street cred you are getting from karma. How do you do that? Why you rack up notoriety of course! Four points of street cred negate one of notoriety (I believe, I'm AFB right now). So, how do we gain notoriety? By publicly killing people in a mall of course! Now, we take my really good street cred, burn it and get rid of the notoriety, and now that mad gunmen who just killed a family in a crowded mall is LESS well known. Wait...what?

Quickfix:
Public Awareness is the sum of (total notoriety ever gained) + (total street cred ever gained). So burning off the 4 cred to negate a point of notoriety still leaves you with the same public awareness.

[Axl]

I think it's two street cred to eliminate one notoriety.

[X-Kalibur]

Quickfix:
Public Awareness is the sum of (total notoriety ever gained) + (total street cred ever gained). So burning off the 4 cred to negate a point of notoriety still leaves you with the same public awareness.

And following that, Public Awareness should degrade at a certain amount provided you lay low.

[Garou]

i thought public awareness was (SC + Notoriety) /3... AFB right now.

[Axl]

Garou, you are right. Draco18s's comment is a suggested houserule.

[Bugfoxmaster]

Draco18s's houserule could work - but only if Public Awareness can degrade over time or something - with people lying low and shutting up and whatnot. Otherwise, it'll never leave you...

[Draco18s]

Draco18s's houserule could work - but only if Public Awareness can degrade over time or something - with people lying low and shutting up and whatnot. Otherwise, it'll never leave you...

-1 per 3 months of "not working" time? It'd vary from game to game, and remember, EVERYONE still knows the Unibomber and it's been thirty years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

-1 per 3 months of "not working" time? It'd vary from game to game, and remember, EVERYONE still knows the Unibomber and it's been thirty years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think you mean the Unabomber.

[Critias]

Basically I think it boils down to street cred/notoriety being an oversimplified system to deal with the abstractions, intricacies, and details of maintaining a reputation. In an attempt to codify a set of rules to handle it, they've instead cobbled together a "Good Runner/Mean Runner" sort of Jedi/Sith morality score, from a video gme.

[Draco18s]

I think you mean the Unabomber.

I blame my terrible spelling skills.

Ues/ And the ypting skills.

Mmh,,

(This prost not broght to you by the "backs[ace" key)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

-1 per 3 months of "not working" time? It'd vary from game to game, and remember, EVERYONE still knows the Unibomber and it's been thirty years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Una What? Una Who?

Keep the Faith

[Karoline]

Una What? Una Who?

Keep the Faith

I've heard the name tossed around once or twice before, but have no idea who it is or what they did.

I think the important thing to remember is that the person is remembered thirty years later by those who were alive at the time.

I'm sure that in a very similar fashion 9/11 will be remembered and brought up by people who were alive at the time for decades at least, but anyone that wasn't already alive (And likely at least a couple years old at the time) won't know anything about it other than that it is mentioned every once in a while. Well, maybe 9/11 is a bit of a bad example since I think they are building some giant monument for it and everything (I think, maybe... I don't really know, just heard that before).

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

-1 per 3 months of "not working" time? It'd vary from game to game, and remember, EVERYONE still knows the UnAbomber and it's been thirty years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also, the person or just hi/her name might become (in)famous but nothing low a low profile and change of identity (and face (and preferably genetic code)) to give you a clean slate and star building your reputation all over again. Of course, if there is no one to say otherwise, you may start talking in the shadows how you were part of X's team (where X is your older identity) on all the runs where everything went ok where the 'ok' bar may vary and get street cred by osmosis.
I mean, if Osama Bin Laden did a face surgery and wen to live happily ever after on some Pakistanian village without bringing his old past back who would know?(besides the possibly surgery team who died on a terrible accident)

[HappyDaze]

With as fragmented as the Sixth World has become, Street Cred, Notoriety, and Public Awareness should all be linked to locales. Your team of high-profile Seattle runners might be virtual unknowns when they relocate to run from Amsterdam.

[Axl]

Hmm, that's exactly what happened when our group relocated from Denver to New York. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

Una What? Una Who?

Keep the Faith

I know you're joking, however...

UNABOM (UNiversity and Airport Bomber) was the FBI code name for Ted (Theodore) Kaczynski (spelling? I think I'm close) he mailed over 20 bombs, injured a dozen or more people, and had 3 fatalities.

I could go look up more on wikipedia... but that's just cheating for the purpose of using notoriety ATM.

[Ascalaphus]

On the other hand, sometimes the fragmentation is exaggerated. With the matrix, and shadow data havens and so forth, your reputation can spread far and wide.

Some PCs and NPCs are very "short-range", but deckers and magicians capable of astral projection have international reach.