When good drones go bad, Drone builds and mods that make GMs go pale Options

[Faraday]

No, it would deal 18P to its modified armor of 9, causing it to make a roll, causing it to more than likely damage itself. Mine does not have this issue.

At worst, it could do 9DV to itself, actually, unless the driver was stupid and rammed at over 200 m/turn. Very easy to deal with. No ramming vehicle can ever do more than 1.5*bod to itself.

Of note: When a vehicle does a successful ram, it will do its body*(1 to 3 depending on speed) DV to the target of the ram and HALF OF THAT to itself. (BBB, 169) With a ram plate, you increase the multiplier by one compared to your speed level. However, the increase only applies to the vehicle being RAMMED, the ramming vehicle's damage is unchanged. (Arsenal, 142) So, if you had a 20 body, 20 armor, ram-plated Conestoga Vista smashing some poor shmuck at top speed, the vista would take 20 DV (20 bod*2*.5) and likely not care, while the target would take 60 DV (20 bod*3).

Yeah, that'd splat a dragon, I reckon. Assuming you could hit one, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[crizh]

No, it would deal 18P to its modified armor of 9, causing it to make a roll, causing it to more than likely damage itself. Mine does not have this issue.

Qua?

[Neraph]

Qua?

Ramming attacks are at -1/2 AP Impact. Vehicle armor is considered both Ballistic and Impact armor. Therefore ramming attacks halve vehicle armor.

At worst, it could do 9DV to itself, actually, unless the driver was stupid and rammed at over 200 m/turn. Very easy to deal with. No ramming vehicle can ever do more than 1.5*bod to itself.

A Bod 9 Contrail with the Sidecar and Ram Plate does 18P to itself in a ram so the maximum 18 points of Armour it can carry is sufficient. It's victim has to cope with a 27P which should be enough to maim most anything....

No, because the 18P was already the half damage to self, as the poster said. I did not check his math, however.

With a ram plate, you increase the multiplier by one compared to your speed level.

No, the "damage done to the rammed vehicleis raised to the next higher damage value on the ramming table (p. 160, SR4)" (Arsenal, page 142) which is quite different. A vehicle going more than 200kph gets no benefit from a ram plate.

[crizh]

Ramming attacks are at -1/2 AP Impact.

What gives you that idea?

Make the damage resistance test as normal.

Incidentally, the ramming vehicle only receives half the calculated damage. In this instance that would actually be 9P so the vehicle in question is horribly over engineered.

[Saint Sithney]

Basically, with the ramming plate, a vehicle takes a damage value two levels lower than the target. So at DV level 2xBOD the vehicle takes half level 2, which is 1xBOD and the target takes DV level 2+1 which is 3xBOD.

And it says that characters resist ramming damage with half Impact. I don't know if a vehicle fitted with hardened armor counts as a character in this instance.. I suppose a wall is a character. Any noun in existence is a character? I just feel like something with real structural support is quite different from, say, a guy wearing chain mail or thick padding.

[Neraph]

What gives you that idea?

Characters resist ramming damage with half their Impact armor (round up).

Incidentally, the ramming vehicle only receives half the calculated damage. In this instance that would actually be 9P so the vehicle in question is horribly over engineered.

I finally ran the numbers myself and this is correct.

[Neraph]

And it says that characters resist ramming damage with half Impact. I don't know if a vehicle fitted with hardened armor counts as a character in this instance.. I suppose a wall is a character. Any noun in existence is a character? I just feel like something with real structural support is quite different from, say, a guy wearing chain mail or thick padding.

In the case of ramming, full-auto and area-effect attacks, both passengers and vehicles resist the damage equally.

I don't know why you people try to justify things outside the rules. Vehicle armor is in effect Hardened, since Vehicles are immune to Stun damage, so as long as the modified DV of the attack does not exceed the modified AP of the vehicle, it does not even need to do a Damage Resistance Test, and that should get the effect you're talking about.

[Saint Sithney]

I just forgot about the 2xBod armor cap again.
Need sleep.

[crizh]

Characters resist ramming damage with half their Impact armor (round up).

Yep.......

This is a vehicle we are talking about here.....

[Neraph]

Yep.......

This is a vehicle we are talking about here.....

... It appears that for the last few years my eyes have glossed over the beginning word of that sentence.

[Faraday]

No, the "damage done to the rammed vehicleis raised to the next higher damage value on the ramming table (p. 160, SR4)" (Arsenal, page 142) which is quite different. A vehicle going more than 200kph gets no benefit from a ram plate.

I was speaking in terms of overall effect. While there is no higher damage multiplier than 3 for ramming, it's not very often that one would be ramming at 200+ meters/combat turn.

[Saint Sithney]

I was speaking in terms of overall effect. While there is no higher damage multiplier than 3 for ramming, it's not very often that one would be ramming at 200+ meters/combat turn.

Wanna touch T-birds? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Neraph]

To get that little extra "oomph" a heimdall can ram someone before the added warhead goes off. This would come up then as well.

[crizh]

That's the way I always use a Heimdall, zero scatter for the win.....

[Werewindlefr]

Okay, sorry for practicing necromancy on this thread but I've just read the "RAW" for ramming. The vehicle must be within walking/running range, and as written, will use the walking/running speed (when ramming, you use tac. combat speed, plus they say "[..] if the driver has to resort to running"), so the figures written under "acceleration". Which means a Scorpion would never ram at 60-200, but rather at 20-60. With the ram plate, that increases to 16 damage to the target vs. 4 to itself. Unless I've missed something, you don't deal 24 damage.

Edit: and that's with a -3 penalty to hit for "running". If using the walking speed, don't try ramming a troll. He'll soak, and they will rip your head off.

[TheWanderingJewe...]

or this piece of Evil to throw at players....

http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/t...-terminator.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3368/357230..._3a98c2c076.jpg

particularly with a really good rigger

[Neraph]

Okay, sorry for practicing necromancy on this thread but I've just read the "RAW" for ramming. The vehicle must be within walking/running range, and as written, will use the walking/running speed (when ramming, you use tac. combat speed, plus they say "[..] if the driver has to resort to running"), so the figures written under "acceleration". Which means a Scorpion would never ram at 60-200, but rather at 20-60. With the ram plate, that increases to 16 damage to the target vs. 4 to itself. Unless I've missed something, you don't deal 24 damage.

Edit: and that's with a -3 penalty to hit for "running". If using the walking speed, don't try ramming a troll. He'll soak, and they will rip your head off.

You're assuming the vehicle does not retain the velocity of going 100 kph when he hits from 20 meters away.

[Ol' Scratch]

Qua?

Armour has an avail' of 6R, easily within char-gen limits.

Gear has two restrictions at character creation. Nothing higher than a rating of 6, and nothing with an Availability of 12 without Restricted Gear. This is mentioned in the same paragraph at the beginning of the gear chapter as well as in the character creation chapter. To drive the point home even further, look in Arsenal on page 132, under the description for vehicular armor: "What helps them to survive this is good old-fashioned armor, rated from 1 to 20." So no, none of these vehicles are permitted at character creation. And good luck getting a GM to let you do it afterwards, too.

Buying successes is an optional rule, too, and it's one intended for trivial tasks. While specifically designing these vehicles and drones so that ramming into things at high speed is trivial for them, I, personally, would require a roll each and every time. Because in my book, crashing at high speed is never a non-threatening and non-stressful situation. Regardless, considering it's an optional rule requiring GM permission, trying to rely on it as proof of concept is kinda silly.

So that, right there, is a list of two major stopping blocks in this particular nonsense.

[Draco18s]

Buying successes is an optional rule, too, and it's one intended for trivial tasks. While specifically designing these vehicles and drones so that ramming into things at high speed is trivial for them, I, personally, would require a roll each and every time.

Or when rolling vehicular damage resistance. SR4 page 161.

Whenever a vehicle is hit by an attack, it resists damage as
normal, rolling Body + Armor. If the attack’s modified DV does
not exceed the vehicle’s modified Armor, no damage is applied.
Note that since many vehicles will have large Body dice pools,
gamemasters are encouraged to use the trade-in-dice-for-hits rule
(4 dice = 1 hit) to simplify tests. Your average tank, for example,
will automatically get 4 hits on a Body Test by trade in, so there is
no point in rolling unless the hits needed are higher than 4.)

[Werewindlefr]

You're assuming the vehicle does not retain the velocity of going 100 kph when he hits from 20 meters away.

No, I'm assuming that ramming is a tactical combat action and thus uses the tactical combat running/walking speed. Which are, more often than not, below 60m/round. You can houserule that if you will, but by RAW, the murdercycle isn't gamebreaking.

[Dakka Dakka]

Whether in tactical or chase combat, vehicles do not have a fixed walking or running rate as metahumans. They only have walking/running acceleration and maximum speed.
If an immobile vehicle with 15/30 acceleration would want to ram someone, this target would have to be within 15/30 meters in the first turn. If this vehicle had already spent one turn of accelerating to 15/30 m/turn it could ram anyone within 45m or 60m if it continued to run. It's impact speed would be 30-60m/turn depending on the chosen mode of acceleration. and so on up to the vehicle's maximum speed.

[Fatum]

Whether in tactical or chase combat, vehicles do not have a fixed walking or running rate as metahumans. They only have walking/running acceleration and maximum speed.
If an immobile vehicle with 15/30 acceleration would want to ram someone, this target would have to be within 15/30 meters in the first turn. If this vehicle had already spent one turn of accelerating to 15/30 m/turn it could ram anyone within 45m or 60m if it continued to run. It's impact speed would be 30-60m/turn depending on the chosen mode of acceleration. and so on up to the vehicle's maximum speed.

If only.

[Faraday]

Because in my book, crashing at high speed is never a non-threatening and non-stressful situation. Regardless, considering it's an optional rule requiring GM permission, trying to rely on it as proof of concept is kinda silly.

I don't know about you, but ramming a person or a small car with an M1 Abrams, while it may be difficult to actually hit them, is not particularly threatening or stressful to the tank itself.

[Ol' Scratch]

I don't know about you, but ramming a person or a small car with an M1 Abrams, while it may be difficult to actually hit them, is not particularly threatening or stressful to the tank itself.

I'd agree, and for a tank that was actually engineered by teams of professionals, mass-produced, and proven in the field, I'd allow the optional rule. For a stupid bike some jerk made in his backyard to prove how broken the rules are and try to ruin a game by actually using it? Not so much.

Will it still be ridiculously broken? Yup! Will it still be utterly invulnerable? Nope! Eventually it'll screw up its test.

[Dakka Dakka]

Coulds someone do the math, how probable this is?
By ogling the problem, I think it is very unlikely that the vehicle will be damaged, let alone immobilized. How often do you want to ram things between maintenance stops?