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> Professionalism, A better scale.
Karoline
post Feb 25 2010, 04:14 AM
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So, one thing that has always bugged me about SR (Well, lots of things, but this is the one I'm going to address right now) is that skill rating is directly tied by description for how good someone is at something. This fails utterly to take into account stats, which can easily make a novice (or even unskilled person) better than a master of a particular skill.

For this reason, I've decided to put together a new skill chart that takes into account the DP you have in a skill, as opposed to the actual rating of the skill itself. Hopefully this will be helpful in determining what sorts of stats/skills NPCs should have to truely bring them up to snuff instead of a single point in the skill changing someone from a novice to a professional while only increasing their chance of success at something by a fraction.

This is a fair bit more complex, so maybe isn't quite as easy to use, but oh well. Lets get started:

DP Skill level
3 Dabbling. This represents someone who is just learning their trade and isn't particularly talented at it. They'll succeed more often than not, but they'll still fail or not know something a fair bit of the time and often make large errors.
4 Training. Someone who has a basic grasp on their trade. They can do fairly easy things without fail, but anything too complex is likely to throw them for a loop.
6 Trained. Able to perform basic tasks without issue, and can handle or at least not fail spectacularly at halfway complex tasks.
8 Apprentice. Things of small complexity aren't an issue, and even difficult tasks can be done every once in a while.
9 Professional. Difficult tasks may not be managed every time, but it is a question of when, not if.
12 Skilled. Difficult tasks aren't worrisome, and even truly hard tasks can be undertaken with a reasonable expectation of success. Nothing is truly out of reach with some paitence.
15 Exceptional. Few tasks are too difficult to be accomplished, and mistakes are simply not made.
16 Master. All but the hardest of tasks are second nature, and even those are simply a small exercise to one of this skill.
19 Grandmaster. Among the top ranking in the world, nothing is too difficult to be undertaken, and most likely be succeeded in.
20 Perfection. Serious contender for #1 in the world, if not already #1. If this person cannot do it, it cannot be done. If this person cannot do it easily, it will melt lesser minds.

So, obviously I've based it on a DP cap of 20 setting the DP 20 as perfection. The points I picked I think are fairly obvious. Every 3 dice to represent a good chance of getting 1 added hit, and every 4 dice to represent being able to buy an additional hit. As the book, I'll provide some references.

Sub-Dabbling:
Athletics Example: "But Luke Carrare hadn't run more than 50m since gym class in the 1970s"
Firearms Example: "I know I need to flip a safety to be able to fire... but I'm not sure where that is."
Technical Example: Knows how to turn on a commlink and get plenty of viruses and spyware on it.
Social Example: BURRRRRPP!
Vehicle Example: The person that drives 10KPH when it rains.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): High school student.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): "I think it rains sometimes in Seattle."

Dabbling:
Athletics Example: Can throw a baseball more or less over the plate... most of the time. The batter may want to be ready to duck.
Firearms Example: Doesn't hit the other person's target at the firing range.
Technical Example: Have a basic idea of how to operate things properly.
Social Example: You just might be able to tip someone teetering on a decision in your favor.
Vehicle Example: Slow down significantly in any inclement weather, but otherwise do alright.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Freshman or advanced highschooler.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Been to Seattle before and can locate the needle.

Training:
Athletics Example: Will hit the ball in the batting cage more often than not, but won't always be solid.
Firearms Example: You hit your own target, but just barely.
Technical Example: Operating your commlink isn't a problem so long as it doesn't crash, but don't expect anything fancy out of it.
Social Example: You can tip people in your favor if they're undecided, but don't expect to bring someone around who is completely opposed.
Vehicle Example: Unless it is pouring buckets, or there is ice on the road, you're just fine.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Sophomore/Junior in collage.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): You can locate the needle without looking at the skyline.

Trained:
Athletics Example: Good solid hits at the batting cage, can manage the 10 minute mile without overexerting too much.
Firearms Example: "Right between the eyes. Ignore the dozen other bullets in the general midsection area, that one was sweet."
Technical Example: You not only know about Ctrl+Alt+Del, but can actually use the various tabs it provides without crashing your computer (usually).
Social Example: "Would you like to buy some X?"
Vehicle Example: Dark, rain, and a bit of ice on the road aren't a real issue unless something unexpected comes up.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Senior in collage.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Can get around town without a map, and can get anywhere specific with a short glance.

Apprentice:
Athletics Example: The batting cage is everything out of the park, the 10 minute mile is a standard, and you can keep your hustle afterwards.
Firearms Example: Still aiming for the body, but you only need about half the rings now.
Technical Example: Most crashes can be circumvented, and you know what all those bars in the video options menu means.
Social Example: "...only ever driven by a little old granny to get groceries every weekend."
Vehicle Example: If you were the only car on the road, you wouldn't have trouble regardless of the condition. It's those other morons that can't figure out how to drive that scare you.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Fresh out of collage, and learning the real world ropes.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Best place to eat without spending a fortune is....

Professional:
Athletics Example: You've got the curve ball down and are working on perfecting the splitter. 9 minutes to the mile and you can keep it up for at least a few miles.
Firearms Example: The head is a viable target for you 2 times out of 3.
Technical Example: No longer 'the new guy' but still your first few years.
Social Example:
Vehicle Example:
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Could teach the lower grades, or help with research.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Hey look, I've heard of this place where you can get that if you know how to ask.

Skilled:
Athletics Example:
Firearms Example: You hit the head with each shot, and often get it in those couple of innermost rings.
Technical Example: Been in your job for several years and have basically all the tricks of the trade down pat. Prime of your game.
Social Example:
Vehicle Example:
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Could teach if you wanted, or do your own research and get some funding for it.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): "Go to 1234 1st street and knock on the door twice, then kick the lower left corner, then knock three more times."

Exceptional:
Athletics Example:
Firearms Example:
Technical Example:
Social Example:
Vehicle Example:
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic):
Knowledge Skill Example (Street):

Master:
Athletics Example:
Firearms Example:
Technical Example:
Social Example:
Vehicle Example:
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic):
Knowledge Skill Example (Street):

Grandmaster:
Athletics Example: People swear they hear sonic booms behind you when you run.
Firearms Example:
Technical Example:
Social Example:
Vehicle Example:
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic):
Knowledge Skill Example (Street):

Perfect:
Athletics Example: "Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound."
Firearms Example: You've unloaded five clips with your eyes closed and your target only has one hole... you haven't missed.
Technical Example: A toaster, a screwdriver, and some duct tape are sufficient to create working drone.
Social Example: "ALL OBEY HYPNOTOAD."
Vehicle Example: Hollywood chase scenes look like sunday drives compared to what you can do. If the car can physically do it, you can make it happen. If the car can't physically do it.. you'll work on it.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): You create new theories that are proven to be both radical and sound on your napkin during lunch.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): If it exists, you can find someone who is selling it by this afternoon.

It's late, I'll update with more examples when I'm less tired and have a chance. Feel free to suggest examples or changes to the examples I have, or comment on how much you like/hate this idea. Also fully open to new suggestions for the titles for the different skill levels, as I'm fairly unimaginative when it comes to naming things.
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Glyph
post Feb 25 2010, 04:41 AM
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I think dice pools are a better overall gauge of effectiveness than raw skill, but I don't think one range is good for all skills. Some, such as combat, go to a much higher level than others. A 12 dice pool for infiltration, or electronics, is very damn good - but that same dice pool for firearms would be "significantly better than the average security guard, but still not in the league of people like street samurai who shoot for a living".
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Feb 25 2010, 05:02 AM
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Just to chime in. The "normal" maximum dice pool a human can roll is 16 dice: 7 from an exceptional stat, 7 from an aptitude skill and 2 from a specialization. Of course certain devices or super-human stats might surpass this easily.

I'm just saying this to explain why I think anyone with a strait skill + attribute sum of 14 should be given a "master of the art" title already. Anything beyond 14 should be considered "above perfection"
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Acidsaliva
post Feb 25 2010, 05:29 AM
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Good General descriptors . I'm assuming 20 DP is your dice cap ?

How bout for your descriptors of skill =>

Social: Look trust me. Would I lie to you?
Social almost perfection: You sell ice to Eskimos.

Vehicle: Could be a professional stunt driver
Vehicle almost perfection: They name stunts and moves after you / Normal stunts are routine. You invent your own.
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FriendoftheDork
post Feb 25 2010, 09:17 AM
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Hey I kinda like this, although some of the "sub dabbler" entries are more appropriate for people with skill less than 0 (Incompetence). Although amusing, they are exaggerated. For example, the first time I picked up a handgun and shot at a target 10 meters away I got 1 bullseye and almost all my shots hit the target. I was amazed at how easy it actually is to shoot a gun, there is a reason why bows and arrows have fallen out of use. For comparison, the first time I shot with a japanese longbow I couldn't get the arrow more than 1 meter, and even hitting a target with a modern competition bow is hardly automatic.

I would probably drop Apprentice and keep Professional though - 8 dice and 9 dice are very close but "apprentice" sounds like a beginner. Also renamed a few titles. I set Master level at 15, because that's the best an unmodified human can do by skill and ability alone. Also this is the best you can be in skills where there are no equipment bonuses.

Changes will be together with the old stuff.

QUOTE
Unskilled: >3 dice
Athletics Example: Walks his dog with a car.
Firearms Example: "Sure I can hit a target. Wait.. stand still!"
Technical Example: Knows how to turn on a commlink and get plenty of viruses and spyware on it.
Social Example: Thinks that smiling and nodding will solve all difficult conversations
Vehicle Example: The person that drives 100 Km/h when it rains.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): High school student.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): "No one who speaks Aztec can be evil."

Dabbling: 3 dice
Athletics Example: Can throw a baseball more or less over the plate... most of the time. The batter may want to be ready to duck.
Firearms Example: Remembers basic safety proceedures.
Technical Example: Can tell the difference between a hard drive and a processor.
Social Example: You just might be able to tip someone teetering on a decision in your favor.
Vehicle Example: Slow down significantly in any inclement weather, but otherwise do alright.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Freshman or advanced highschooler.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Been to Seattle before and can locate the needle.

Apprentice: 4
Athletics Example: Will hit the ball in the batting cage more often than not, but won't always be solid.
Firearms Example: Will generally hit the target - as long as it isn't too far away or moving.
Technical Example: Will generally manage a few commlink hickup, but will need technical support forreal problems.
Social Example: You can tip people in your favor if they're undecided, but don't expect to bring someone around who is completely opposed.
Vehicle Example: Unless it is pouring buckets, or there is ice on the road, you're just fine.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Sophomore/Junior in college.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Knows which neighbourhoods not to walk in after dark.

Trained: 6
Athletics Example: Good solid hits at the batting cage, can manage the 10 minute mile without overexerting too much.
Firearms Example: "Right between the eyes. Ignore the dozen other bullets in the general midsection area, that one was sweet."
Technical Example: "Don't worry, I speak 1337". Can do some basic programming.
Social Example: Can work as a decent salesman and live off the commission
Vehicle Example: Can work as a taxi driver, even in areas without GridGuide.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Could complete a Major.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Can get around town without a map, and can get anywhere specific with a short glance.


Professional: 9
Athletics Example: You've got the curve ball down and are working on perfecting the splitter. 9 minutes to the mile and you can keep it up for at least a few miles.
Firearms Example: The head is a viable target for you 2 times out of 3.
Technical Example: You know the drill. Actually you know all the tools.
Social Example: Not only will you often win bargains, you will usually let the other guy believe he made a really good deal.
Vehicle Example: If you're taxi driver some frenchman will make a good action movie about you.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Could make a good teacher, or help with research.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): "Hey look, I've heard of this place where you can get that if you know how to ask."

Veteran: 12
Athletics Example: Professional athlete working on getting to the big league.
Firearms Example: You could work in a HTR team or maybe a SWAT team.
Technical Example: Been in your job for several years and have basically all the tricks of the trade down pat. Prime of your game.
Social Example: This guy will you get you that contract.
Vehicle Example: "Are you still driving taxis? I hear there is an opening at DocWagon.. yeah for the high-risk operators.2"
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Could do your own research and get some funding for it.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): "Go to 1234 1st street and knock on the door twice, then kick the lower left corner, then knock three more times."

Master: 15
Athletics Example: "The best of the best. Really, the other guys with cyber or freakish metahuman strength are cheating."
Firearms Example: Special forces level.
Technical Example: Thomas Eddison. Too bad for him they didn't have hot SIM and superkits back then.
Social Example: Can convice a room of people that "Greed is good."
Vehicle Example: Evil Knievel.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Einstein.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Don Corleone.

Superhuman: 19
Athletics Example: People swear they hear sonic booms behind you when you run. Meep Meep!
Firearms Example: Tir Ghost or other superb special forces. Lucky Luke if he was real.
Technical Example: Deus. Yes, the AI.
Social Example: Can brainwash someone in 10 minutes.
Vehicle Example: The car is just along for the ride.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): The computer data searches YOU.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): If it exists, you can find someone who is selling it by this afternoon.

Perfection: 20
Athletics Example: "Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound."
Firearms Example: You can take out an armored truck with a hold-out pistol.
Technical Example: Macgyver wonders how you did that.
Social Example: "ALL OBEY HYPNOTOAD."
Vehicle Example: Hollywood chase scenes look like sunday drives compared to what you can do. If the car can physically do it, you can make it happen. If the car can't physically do it.. you'll work on it.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): You're afraid that publuishing your theories could unravel the fabric of time and space itself!
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): ...If it doesen't exist you know who's working on it and where

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Tycho
post Feb 25 2010, 10:20 AM
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Problem with that range is: in some fields there are tons of bonus dice to gather, in others near to none.

Software: Programming Suite +5, Encephalon +2, PusHed +1, Cerebralbooster +3...
Surivial: none

You should take that into account.

and in many fields it is easily possible to overcome 20 dice, so you scale should be higher.

cya
Tycho
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Ed_209a
post Feb 25 2010, 12:12 PM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 25 2010, 12:41 AM) *
I think dice pools are a better overall gauge of effectiveness than raw skill, but I don't think one range is good for all skills. Some, such as combat, go to a much higher level than others. A 12 dice pool for infiltration, or electronics, is very damn good - but that same dice pool for firearms would be "significantly better than the average security guard, but still not in the league of people like street samurai who shoot for a living".

QUOTE (Tycho @ Feb 25 2010, 06:20 AM) *
Problem with that range is: in some fields there are tons of bonus dice to gather, in others near to none.

Software: Programming Suite +5, Encephalon +2, PusHed +1, Cerebralbooster +3...
Surivial: none

You should take that into account.

Why not just look at stat+skill? Throw out all the various bonuses, like smartgun, custom weapon, etc.

This gives you a upper level of 16, and a lower level of what, 2? (below average stat, rolling off default) Calibrate the scale from that.

After all, a master gunman with a stock AK and a newb with an ultimate, tacticool, Arsenal monstrosity might have the same pool size, but the first guy is still better.
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Karoline
post Feb 25 2010, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Feb 25 2010, 04:17 AM) *
Hey I kinda like this, although some of the "sub dabbler" entries are more appropriate for people with skill less than 0 (Incompetence). Although amusing, they are exaggerated. For example, the first time I picked up a handgun and shot at a target 10 meters away I got 1 bullseye and almost all my shots hit the target. I was amazed at how easy it actually is to shoot a gun, there is a reason why bows and arrows have fallen out of use. For comparison, the first time I shot with a japanese longbow I couldn't get the arrow more than 1 meter, and even hitting a target with a modern competition bow is hardly automatic.

Well, I've never fired a gun, so I can't speak to the ease of that, but personally the first time I picked up a bow (The fairly cheap and unimpressive kind they buy in mass for summer camps and such) I was able to hit a target most of the time from about 10-15m away. Could be I have naturally high Agi or a talent in archery, but I didn't find their use all that difficult. I really do need to get to a gun range at some point. Oh wait, I've fired a rifle before, nearly forgot. Yeah, I was more accurate at a similar distance, but the added ease of a gun over a bow isn't put into the SR rules in any way.

QUOTE
I would probably drop Apprentice and keep Professional though - 8 dice and 9 dice are very close but "apprentice" sounds like a beginner. Also renamed a few titles. I set Master level at 15, because that's the best an unmodified human can do by skill and ability alone. Also this is the best you can be in skills where there are no equipment bonuses.

Changes will be together with the old stuff.


Yeah, I considered dropping the 8/9 split because they are quite similar, though the added chance of getting that third hit is fairly significant for that one extra die.

P.S. Thanks for all the suggestion examples.

QUOTE
and in many fields it is easily possible to overcome 20 dice, so you scale should be higher.

Unless the DP is capped at 20, which I said it was for the purposes of this chart.

QUOTE
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 25 2010, 12:41 AM) *
I think dice pools are a better overall gauge of effectiveness than raw skill, but I don't think one range is good for all skills. Some, such as combat, go to a much higher level than others. A 12 dice pool for infiltration, or electronics, is very damn good - but that same dice pool for firearms would be "significantly better than the average security guard, but still not in the league of people like street samurai who shoot for a living".

QUOTE (Tycho @ Feb 25 2010, 06:20 AM) *
Problem with that range is: in some fields there are tons of bonus dice to gather, in others near to none.

Software: Programming Suite +5, Encephalon +2, PusHed +1, Cerebralbooster +3...
Surivial: none

You should take that into account.

Why not just look at stat+skill? Throw out all the various bonuses, like smartgun, custom weapon, etc.

This gives you a upper level of 16, and a lower level of what, 2? (below average stat, rolling off default) Calibrate the scale from that.

After all, a master gunman with a stock AK and a newb with an ultimate, tacticool, Arsenal monstrosity might have the same pool size, but the first guy is still better.


Good points and things I took some time to think of. But the fact is those bonus DP should be considered when comparing to this chart. For instance, someone with a Skill 3 + Agi 3 and no smartgun, is going to get the same kind of spread as someone with Skill 1 + Agi 3 + smartlink. And thus even though one is more 'skilled' they are equal in any regards that matter to an outside observer. The only real difference is that the one person can pick up a smartlink and become better. Thus, while he has no smartlink, he is only of about 'trained' quality, but when he has a smartlink he is of 'apprentice' quality. It's kind of a "I don't care how you get the job done, so long as you get it done."

Reason I don't want to look at Stat+Skill and ignore bonuses is this creates the same problem that the book has in that it looks at just Skill and ignores Stats which make up a large part of a persons DP. For example, a professional is a skill 3 in SR, regardless of stats. So if you have someone with Skill 3 + Stat 2 vs someone with Skill 1 + Stat 5, the second person is going to be better at doing that thing, even though he is 'less skilled'. Personally I'd like my professional mechanic to be defined by how well he can actually fix a car, not how long he has spent learning to fix cars.

I agree there is a bit of a problem regarding things that have fewer bonuses, but I don't know how large of a problem it is. Yes, perhaps no one can ever become perfect in survival, but instead of creating individual skills, I just look at it as "Even the most skilled survivalist is going to have serious trouble if they are dumped in the antarctic in their underware." Which would be a 6+ target number, or a series of 5+ or something similar. Meanwhille, if you come up with a similarly difficult task for a marksman with muscle toner, reflex recorders, and a smartlink, she'll be able to mange it much more regularly. The fact that you've reached the highest it is possible to reach in your particular field (At 14 dice) Doesn't mean your difference from 1 is greater than the difference between someone who has 14 in a field in which you can get to 20.

Also, I'm fairly sure survival has several things that can give bonuses. A good survival kit should give a 'good tools' bonus just like a good hardware kit. And there is plenty of survival equipment that gives situational bonuses (Like a cold suit in the arctic) or should reasonably adjust thresholds (Desert clothing making it easier to resist heat stroke).

Remember that my descriptions involving grade level and work experience are more an idea of 'how joe average got here'. It is of course totally possible to grab some neocortical nanites and cerebral boosters strait into collage as an already fairly smart person and have the same skill level as joe average who has been working at it for a large chunk of their life. This also works slightly in reverse. For this example, that person (With the boosters) could reasonably expect to get to the same job pay and level and ease of life and so on as the experienced joe average fairly quickly. Perhaps even going a bit higher because 'he has so much potential.'
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FriendoftheDork
post Feb 25 2010, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 25 2010, 02:13 PM) *
Well, I've never fired a gun, so I can't speak to the ease of that, but personally the first time I picked up a bow (The fairly cheap and unimpressive kind they buy in mass for summer camps and such) I was able to hit a target most of the time from about 10-15m away. Could be I have naturally high Agi or a talent in archery, but I didn't find their use all that difficult. I really do need to get to a gun range at some point. Oh wait, I've fired a rifle before, nearly forgot. Yeah, I was more accurate at a similar distance, but the added ease of a gun over a bow isn't put into the SR rules in any way.



Yeah, I considered dropping the 8/9 split because they are quite similar, though the added chance of getting that third hit is fairly significant for that one extra die.

P.S. Thanks for all the suggestion examples.


Hmm it's been awhile since I shot with the common modern bow. Aren't they designed to be easier to use than the medieval equivalents? After all, it's child's play (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Still it was considered you needed years of training to become good (professional) with the bow. But the point wasn't about one skill being harder to learn than another (way to much bookeeping), but the silly notion that someone with actual Pistol skill don't know how to turn off the safety and that people with about medium skill (usually take skillswires or weeks/months of training) has a hard time hitting his own target.

Added chance of getting a third hit on 9 instead of 8 dice isn't that much really, only slightly higher (making it likely on an average). Also, it looks strange as it breaks the otherwise linear scale and requires new inventive titles that really don't mean anything.

Otherwise I agree about Dice pools better representing effectiveness than skill alone.

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Karoline
post Feb 25 2010, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Feb 25 2010, 08:43 AM) *
But the point wasn't about one skill being harder to learn than another (way to much bookeeping), but the silly notion that someone with actual Pistol skill don't know how to turn off the safety and that people with about medium skill (usually take skillswires or weeks/months of training) has a hard time hitting his own target.


Well, I put that example under sub-dabbling, which is a DP of less than 3, which means that the person almost certainly lacks the pistols skill, and instead represents someone who has never touched a gun before trying to use one. Since I fall into that category (For pistols) I know perfectly well that there is a safety, and I need it off in order to fire, but I'm only somewhat sure where it is, and have no idea which position is on and which is off.

As for 'dabbling' that represents something along the lines of 'Hey, this is my first time on the firing range', and yeah, maybe you won't actually hit your neighbors target instead of your own, but if you look at it from the rules standpoint, you have a decent chance of a glitch (1, 1, 5+) and an even better chance of a critical glitch (1, 1, 4-), so yeah, you're actually reasonably likely to miss your target entirely (No hits) or hit your neighbor's target (glitch/critical glitch). Then when you hit 6 dice, your chances of a glitch or critical glitch go way down, and you're virtually always going to get at least one hit, and often 2 hits, which represents that you're basically always going to hit your target (1 hit, barely) and will often get decent shots (2 hits, outer few rings) and will occasionally get an inner few rings hit. At 8 you will always get at least some rings, and can reasonably expect to get inner rings.

I realize my assessment of how hard it is to hit a target at a shooting range might be off, but so is SRs general assessment on how hard it is to use a gun compared to say a bow. Both are equally likely to hit a given target from similar distances (Same range categories) with the same level of training. Ignoring that arrows move slowly enough that you can react to them, while bullets do not, and also ignoring the ease of using a gun to a bow.
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FriendoftheDork
post Feb 25 2010, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 25 2010, 03:07 PM) *
Well, I put that example under sub-dabbling, which is a DP of less than 3, which means that the person almost certainly lacks the pistols skill, and instead represents someone who has never touched a gun before trying to use one. Since I fall into that category (For pistols) I know perfectly well that there is a safety, and I need it off in order to fire, but I'm only somewhat sure where it is, and have no idea which position is on and which is off.

As for 'dabbling' that represents something along the lines of 'Hey, this is my first time on the firing range', and yeah, maybe you won't actually hit your neighbors target instead of your own, but if you look at it from the rules standpoint, you have a decent chance of a glitch (1, 1, 5+) and an even better chance of a critical glitch (1, 1, 4-), so yeah, you're actually reasonably likely to miss your target entirely (No hits) or hit your neighbor's target (glitch/critical glitch). Then when you hit 6 dice, your chances of a glitch or critical glitch go way down, and you're virtually always going to get at least one hit, and often 2 hits, which represents that you're basically always going to hit your target (1 hit, barely) and will often get decent shots (2 hits, outer few rings) and will occasionally get an inner few rings hit. At 8 you will always get at least some rings, and can reasonably expect to get inner rings.

I realize my assessment of how hard it is to hit a target at a shooting range might be off, but so is SRs general assessment on how hard it is to use a gun compared to say a bow. Both are equally likely to hit a given target from similar distances (Same range categories) with the same level of training. Ignoring that arrows move slowly enough that you can react to them, while bullets do not, and also ignoring the ease of using a gun to a bow.


Hmm true that. But If you do have a dice pool of 3 or more (thus about 1-2 skill) you should be able to hit your target. I imagine just hitting the target might even be easier than fumbling with the safety, slide etc. during your first handing of a gun. I sorta cheated since I had range operators insisting on loading and preparing the guns for me. Of course since it didn't require any license or safety courses, that's probably a good idea. Still when I later got a friend's gun in my hand I was able to find and understand these fairly quickly. It's not brain surgery and is designed for ease if use and understanding.

Maybe your entry on sub-dabbling was ok. You could probably say "someone who has never used a gun but has seen it on trids."


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DireRadiant
post Feb 25 2010, 03:05 PM
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I just double the number in the books, so 1-6 becomes 2 - 12 and base it on Attribute + Skill pool.

Saves my reinventing and rewriting tons of stuff.
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FriendoftheDork
post Feb 25 2010, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 25 2010, 04:05 PM) *
I just double the number in the books, so 1-6 becomes 2 - 12 and base it on Attribute + Skill pool.

Saves my reinventing and rewriting tons of stuff.


I did that before this thread made it easy for me to use that instead (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Also... slow day at work.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Feb 25 2010, 05:32 PM
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As a point you can hit 20 in every skill though some are harder than others. 7 dice exceptional skill, 3 dice physical adept, 7 dice exceptional attribute(assuming human) and most attributes can be bumped up in someway. Even if it might be limited to physical mages and a sustaining focus.

Oh and I really like this DP description list, it be awesome.
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Feb 25 2010, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Feb 25 2010, 02:32 PM) *
As a point you can hit 20 in every skill though some are harder than others. 7 dice exceptional skill, 3 dice physical adept, 7 dice exceptional attribute(assuming human) and most attributes can be bumped up in someway. Even if it might be limited to physical mages and a sustaining focus.

Oh and I really like this DP description list, it be awesome.


And while some atrributes can't be raised with augmentation nor magic. "Intuition, I'm looking at you". There are some Augmentations that increase the DP of skills based on intuition. (2 genetechs and 1 nanotech as I recall)
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CanadianWolverin...
post Feb 26 2010, 01:11 AM
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Great scale. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I wonder, do GM's ever give out good qualities like exceptional skill to their players? Just asking because the number of time I have seen either exceptional skill or attribute picked in the builds shared in these forums...

I personally like those good qualities, if only for the potential to one day bump them up one with a bunch of karma even if I don't have the stat maxed out at start.
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Karoline
post Feb 26 2010, 01:34 AM
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QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Feb 25 2010, 08:11 PM) *
Great scale. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I wonder, do GM's ever give out good qualities like exceptional skill to their players? Just asking because the number of time I have seen either exceptional skill or attribute picked in the builds shared in these forums...

I personally like those good qualities, if only for the potential to one day bump them up one with a bunch of karma even if I don't have the stat maxed out at start.


I don't think the GM every (or hardly ever) gives out positive qualities for free. Instead you are generally allowed to purchase qualities with karma, so long as they make some degree of sense.

QUOTE
And while some atrributes can't be raised with augmentation nor magic. "Intuition, I'm looking at you". There are some Augmentations that increase the DP of skills based on intuition. (2 genetechs and 1 nanotech as I recall)


Like which? Every stat except edge can be improved with the increase [stat] spell, or the improve [stat] adept power, and I believe there is something out there in the tech world to boost every stat (or stat based skills) as well.

Str: Muscle Augmentation, Muscle Replacement, Cyberlimb, Suprathyroid Gland
Agi: Muscle Toner, Muscle Replacement, Cyberlimb, Suprathyroid Gland
Bod: Cyberlimb (Bone changes only affect for the purpose of soaking, so don't quite count), Suprathyroid Gland
Rea: Wired reflexes, MBW, Reaction Enhancers, Synaptic Boosters, Suprathyroid Gland
Int: Limbic System Nanites, Dynomitan, Qualia
Log: Cerebral Boosters, Neocortical Nanites, PuSHeD
Cha: Enhanced Pheremones... not sure any others boost all charisma based.
Wil: Daredrenaline.

And that doesn't account for things like reflex recorder, the large range of things that boost for athletics group. So I think that you can get more or less anything up to 20 DP, just that some things are much easier to manage that than others. And I can support this. Any skill can get to a 'natural' DP of at least 16, and then you have to start putting conditional modifiers in your favor such as having cold weather gear for survival in the arctic.

Edit: Make that 17, forgot to account for dwarves. And of course magic makes anything able to reach 20.
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CanadianWolverin...
post Feb 26 2010, 02:30 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 25 2010, 07:34 PM) *
I don't think the GM every (or hardly ever) gives out positive qualities for free. Instead you are generally allowed to purchase qualities with karma, so long as they make some degree of sense.


Er, I didn't mean for free. But if I am understanding you right, "as long as they make some degree of sense" means if a character wants to bump them self up that bit to perfection on the scale as generously provided by yourself, you have to hope your GM sees the sense in letting the player's character have their fun that way?

Hmm, another thought on the scale, I suppose once you start hitting certain DPs, that would have some effect on reputation, correct? I mean, most people who are interested in a particular subject have some idea of who the best in that area are or is it possible that some who were really the best just never made it into the history books records?

Sorry, just brain storming like crazy now, your scale is inspiring me in ways that the books 0/1-6/7 scale only seemed to kind of allude to. Just think, a character who can buy 5 hits on a regular basis, that has to be the super hero protagonist of shadowrun novel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wait a sec, does the scale take into account Edge as well as the Skill + Specialization + Attribute + Bonii? Hmm, -1...7 + 0...2 + 1...16 + -6...3 + 1...8 = 0*...36 DP
Huh, guess that is why you stipulate the cap of 20 on a DP? I just came up with my range by quickly looking through the SR4A, there may be some bonii/penalties stacking I didn't take into account. The * is I realize having a 0 or negative DP is just an auto fail and depending on thresholds make auto fail even more possible for characters with low DP.
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Karoline
post Feb 26 2010, 02:56 AM
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QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Feb 25 2010, 09:30 PM) *
Er, I didn't mean for free. But if I am understanding you right, "as long as they make some degree of sense" means if a character wants to bump them self up that bit to perfection on the scale as generously provided by yourself, you have to hope your GM sees the sense in letting the player's character have their fun that way?

Hmm, another thought on the scale, I suppose once you start hitting certain DPs, that would have some effect on reputation, correct? I mean, most people who are interested in a particular subject have some idea of who the best in that area are or is it possible that some who were really the best just never made it into the history books records?

Sorry, just brain storming like crazy now, your scale is inspiring me in ways that the books 0/1-6/7 scale only seemed to kind of allude to. Just think, a character who can buy 5 hits on a regular basis, that has to be the super hero protagonist of shadowrun novel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wait a sec, does the scale take into account Edge as well as the Skill + Specialization + Attribute + Bonii? Hmm, -1...7 + 0...2 + 1...16 + -6...3 + 1...8 = 0*...36 DP
Huh, guess that is why you stipulate the cap of 20 on a DP? I just came up with my range by quickly looking through the SR4A, there may be some bonii/penalties stacking I didn't take into account. The * is I realize having a 0 or negative DP is just an auto fail and depending on thresholds make auto fail even more possible for characters with low DP.


I'm glad you (and others, thanks for all the great comments!) like the scale (Still need to get around to editing it with all those great suggested descriptions)

Yes, that is exactly why I limited it to a DP of 20. Pornomancer easily shows how you can get into the 40+ range, basically every skill can get to 20+ if you really want to work at it. I picked 20 because I wanted there to be an upper limit to compare to. A scale of 1 to infinity is fairly useless because 1 is better than 2, but it still isn't that much compared to infinity.

Also a max of 20 allows the harder to max skills (Like survival) to still have a relevance on the scale. Also, one of the many reasons I wanted to make this chart was to show players just how good their characters are (I need a reminder of that sometimes) So many people seem to think they're characters are worthless without DPs of 18+, when the fact is that they've just about reached the pinnacle of physical potential. It is nice to have more realistic comparisons for a character than the pornomancer.

Oh, and as for your first question, basically yeah. You need to convince your GM to let you get the quality. I imagine some are fairly stingy on this, and some are more 'sure get whatever.'

I think some notable exceptions to the 'get whatever' would be SURGE and Awakening, since there are already qualities specifically for those coming up during play. And some really obvious exceptions like 'born rich' and genetic heritage and type O body and so on. Like I said, very GM by GM basis, but I don't think most will begrudge you getting aptitude or enhanced attribute (or whatever it is called). Aptitude is 20 karma and then it is another 14 karma to actually raise the skill, while the attribute one is 40 karma and then (Depending on metatype) another 35 to raise the stat. I think if you have that much karma you want to burn on a single stat/skill, most GMs will let you go that way. I mean, mages have infinite advancement thanks to initiation, may as well give mundanes a little bit of extra room for growth and something to burn karma on.
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FriendoftheDork
post Feb 26 2010, 09:00 AM
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Thanks for all the tips on maximizing attributes, didn't know about the means of enhancing intuition, logic and willpower at least. Haven't really read up on genetech and nanotech as I figure it's too SOTA for normal runners.

As for buying the Exceptional Attribute quality, I for one would allow it without a problem. It's damn expensive to have a use for it at Chargen, and even more expensive with karma later on. So if you want to nerf your character to the best in one particular skill? No problem.
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Karoline
post Feb 26 2010, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Feb 26 2010, 04:00 AM) *
Thanks for all the tips on maximizing attributes, didn't know about the means of enhancing intuition, logic and willpower at least. Haven't really read up on genetech and nanotech as I figure it's too SOTA for normal runners.

As for buying the Exceptional Attribute quality, I for one would allow it without a problem. It's damn expensive to have a use for it at Chargen, and even more expensive with karma later on. So if you want to nerf your character to the best in one particular skill? No problem.


Most of it is surprisingly low availability. I think all the personal nanites are 12 or less, and same with all but one geneware.

Oh, and I forgot to include in the list genetic optimization, which is 45k and .2 essence I think, and raises the max of any (of the basic 8 attributes) by 1.

The main trouble with nanites is the stupid high essence cost of nanohives. The simple workaround is to get a cyberlimb of some kind. Even a hand or foot can hold a couple nanohives.
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CeeJay
post Feb 26 2010, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline)
Every stat except edge can be improved with the increase [stat] spell, or the improve [stat] adept power, and I believe there is something out there in the tech world to boost every stat (or stat based skills) as well.

The adept power "Improve attribute" works only for physical attributes, so this doesn't help boosting mental attributes.

QUOTE (Karoline)
Str: Muscle Augmentation, Muscle Replacement, Cyberlimb, Suprathyroid Gland
Agi: Muscle Toner, Muscle Replacement, Cyberlimb, Suprathyroid Gland
Bod: Cyberlimb (Bone changes only affect for the purpose of soaking, so don't quite count), Suprathyroid Gland
Rea: Wired reflexes, MBW, Reaction Enhancers, Synaptic Boosters, Suprathyroid Gland
Int: Limbic System Nanites, Dynomitan, Qualia
Log: Cerebral Boosters, Neocortical Nanites, PuSHeD
Cha: Enhanced Pheremones... not sure any others boost all charisma based.
Wil: Daredrenaline.


All the neural amplifier nanites (limbic, neocortic) only give bonus dice to intuition or logic-linked skill tests. So limbic nanites don't boost intuition directly and therefore don't increase initiative. Same goes for enhanced pheromones, neocorticals and the gentech.
Most of the time this won't make any difference to the final DP but for almost every implant one can think of situations where the bonus should not aply (like negotiations via VR shouldn't benefit from enhanced pheromones).
Also note that Neocorticals explicitly do not work in stressful situations...

QUOTE (SR4 Augmentation p. 110)
Neocortical: ... When using Logic-connected skills, this implant increases the user’s dice pool by +1 per
rating point—as long as the character is able to concentrate on the problem at hand without major distractions or encroaching stressful situations (such as a raging firefight, an ongoing chase, or hacking an ultra-secure system).


Such a shame, they could have been the ultimate hacker cyberware....
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Karoline
post Feb 26 2010, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE (CeeJay @ Feb 26 2010, 09:09 AM) *
The adept power "Improve attribute" works only for physical attributes, so this doesn't help boosting mental attributes.



All the neural amplifier nanites (limbic, neocortic) only give bonus dice to intuition or logic-linked skill tests. So limbic nanites don't boost intuition directly and therefore don't increase initiative. Same goes for enhanced pheromones, neocorticals and the gentech.
Most of the time this won't make any difference to the final DP but for almost every implant one can think of situations where the bonus should not aply (like negotiations via VR shouldn't benefit from enhanced pheromones).
Also note that Neocorticals explicitly do not work in stressful situations...



Such a shame, they could have been the ultimate hacker cyberware....


Yes, I know they don't boost the stat directly. I was specifically talking about things that made you better at skills.

And neocortical is still the ultimate hacker cyberware. After all, what counts as an ultra-secure node will vary from hacker to hacker. You could also set yourself up to be good at the composure test, and thus able to stay calm enough to make use of them even when in dangerous situations.
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FriendoftheDork
post Feb 26 2010, 03:02 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 26 2010, 02:10 PM) *
Most of it is surprisingly low availability. I think all the personal nanites are 12 or less, and same with all but one geneware.

Oh, and I forgot to include in the list genetic optimization, which is 45k and .2 essence I think, and raises the max of any (of the basic 8 attributes) by 1.

The main trouble with nanites is the stupid high essence cost of nanohives. The simple workaround is to get a cyberlimb of some kind. Even a hand or foot can hold a couple nanohives.


Yikes.. if it were that common you'd think it was in the main book... then again you could say the same about light pistols...
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Karoline
post Feb 26 2010, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Feb 26 2010, 10:02 AM) *
Yikes.. if it were that common you'd think it was in the main book... then again you could say the same about light pistols...


Most of the stuff in augmentation and arsenal is <12 availability, and a huge chunk of street magic is applicable for starting characters. Simply a case of only being able to fit so much stuff in a book (And also having enough stuff that you can sell other books)
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