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> How can you transfer money between accounts without leaving a datatrail?
Ranger
post Feb 25 2010, 07:31 PM
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This question came up after my last gaming session, in which the characters were captured by Knight Errant, and managed to escape. However, the team's hacker wasn't able to delete information about the team from KE's computers. As such, the characters want to ditch their current fake SINs and buy new ones. If I'm not mistaken, credit accounts are linked to SINs, so if they get a new fake SIN, they also need new credit accounts.

Therefore, how can they transfer money from their old credit accounts to their new credit accounts without leaving a datatrail?

I was thinking that maybe they could withdraw all of their money onto credsticks, then deposit from the credsticks to their new accounts. However, don't credsticks leave a datatrail? Afterall, if you forge a credstick and then use one of the two (the original or the fake), the other credstick becomes useless, which implies that there is a way to track credsticks.
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Mordinvan
post Feb 25 2010, 07:35 PM
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QUOTE (Ranger @ Feb 25 2010, 12:31 PM) *
This question came up after my last gaming session, in which the characters were captured by Knight Errant, and managed to escape. However, the team's hacker wasn't able to delete information about the team from KE's computers. As such, the characters want to ditch their current fake SINs and buy new ones. If I'm not mistaken, credit accounts are linked to SINs, so if they get a new fake SIN, they also need new credit accounts.

Therefore, how can they transfer money from their old credit accounts to their new credit accounts without leaving a datatrail?

I was thinking that maybe they could withdraw all of their money onto credsticks, then deposit from the credsticks to their new accounts. However, don't credsticks leave a datatrail? Afterall, if you forge a credstick and then use one of the two (the original or the fake), the other credstick becomes useless, which implies that there is a way to track credsticks.


Go to a casino, buy 'chips' if they still use them in 2070, and then cash those same chips back in after a few hours of hanging out and drinking.
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Draco18s
post Feb 25 2010, 07:40 PM
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Credsticks.

Credsticks specifically erase "money's" "history" when used to transfer funds.
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Ascalaphus
post Feb 25 2010, 08:00 PM
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Use the services of a shadow bank (which is usually located in a place with troublesome extraterritoriality, enough so that corps/governments can't really touch it.)
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Malachi
post Feb 25 2010, 08:38 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 25 2010, 01:40 PM) *
Credsticks.

Credsticks specifically erase "money's" "history" when used to transfer funds.

I think you're saying what I'm thinking, but I want to be sure. So to clarify:

Credsticks are cash. The data trail from the money is still there, technically, it just becomes night impossible to follow. If the runners were to put the total value of their accounts on Credsticks then there would still be a record that the nuyen was transferred to a credstick, but that would be it. On the purchase side, if they were to use the credsticks to purchase things then there would be a record that the nuyen came from "a credstick." Is there any definitive way to say that those are the same credstick? No.

So, it's not that transferring nuyen to a Credstick "erases" the history, per se, it just makes that trail impossible to follow.
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Acidsaliva
post Feb 25 2010, 08:40 PM
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Shell corporations with a limited shelf life.
Shadow banks.
Matrix banks that are set up purely to facilitate the transfer then closed.
Your friendly hacker erases all money history / data trail and then crashes the system(s) the money moved through.
Any form of Money Laundering provided by your local crime syndicate, for a fee, of course.
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LurkerOutThere
post Feb 25 2010, 08:44 PM
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The biggest problem with creadsticks, and this is in no small part supposition on my part, you have to go to a financial instition to get them issued and certified, especially for the kind o funds yoru runners are probly talking about. Then you presumably need to take them to another institution to offload them and get the money back into the financial system. While such transactions are likely quick and mostly painless it does mean the money could still be tracked by the credstick number although it basically means that your runners should be fine as long as they go through a shadow broker or at least stay away from banks that Ares has a partnership with. Either way a shadow broker is likely the safer bet but they will charge a percentage.
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DireRadiant
post Feb 25 2010, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (Ranger @ Feb 25 2010, 01:31 PM) *
I was thinking that maybe they could withdraw all of their money onto credsticks, then deposit from the credsticks to their new accounts. However, don't credsticks leave a datatrail? Afterall, if you forge a credstick and then use one of the two (the original or the fake), the other credstick becomes useless, which implies that there is a way to track credsticks.


Yes you can track nuyen on credsticks. It's just much much harder, and therefore much more expensive. Usually far far more expensive then the money you are tracking.

By definition, if there is no record of the money, then there isn't any.
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Zolhex
post Feb 25 2010, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Feb 25 2010, 03:44 PM) *
The biggest problem with creadsticks, and this is in no small part supposition on my part, you have to go to a financial instition to get them issued and certified


If you have the proper skills you can buy the parts to make credsticks to use thus no bank it does not need to be certified if it's your money on your stick then go buy your certified stick and transfer the money now it's certified money from an unknown source.
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Ranger
post Feb 25 2010, 09:17 PM
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Thank you for the replies. A lot of good suggestions in there, and I have a good idea of how to handle it, now. I also didn't realize that it was supposed to be that difficult to track credstick transactions.
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deek
post Feb 25 2010, 09:26 PM
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Using what others have mentioned above (shadowbanks, hackers, shadowbrokers, crime syndicates), I'd suggest just telling the runners there's an 2% (or whatever fee you want to assess) to make it happen and leave it at that. Make up whatever method you want to so the players can sleep at night and the GM isn't going to meddle with the mundane details.

Its easier on everyone.
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hobgoblin
post Feb 25 2010, 09:28 PM
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i guess one option would be to after going to certified credstick, one used said stick to buy something physical on the black market, and then sell it again, putting the sum onto another certified credstick, that then goes onto the new account.

i think one of the "classical" cyberpunk novels had the main character track her finances in drugs and some corp stocks, avoiding cash as they where to "volatile" in terms of value (hyper inflation most likely).
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Caadium
post Feb 25 2010, 09:30 PM
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QUOTE (Ranger @ Feb 25 2010, 11:31 AM) *
This question came up after my last gaming session, in which the characters were captured by Knight Errant, and managed to escape. However, the team's hacker wasn't able to delete information about the team from KE's computers. As such, the characters want to ditch their current fake SINs and buy new ones. If I'm not mistaken, credit accounts are linked to SINs, so if they get a new fake SIN, they also need new credit accounts.

Therefore, how can they transfer money from their old credit accounts to their new credit accounts without leaving a datatrail?

I was thinking that maybe they could withdraw all of their money onto credsticks, then deposit from the credsticks to their new accounts. However, don't credsticks leave a datatrail? Afterall, if you forge a credstick and then use one of the two (the original or the fake), the other credstick becomes useless, which implies that there is a way to track credsticks.


You are apparently nicer than I am when I GM. If players get busted then escape, then that SIN is thoroughly burned. You can bet that KE will be monitoring the accounts for any possible transactions; if they haven't simply frozen the assets. Part of prepping a fake SIN just in case you get caught (as they did) is to keep enough funds tied to it that you can do what you need, but not your entire savings. Afterall, keeping all your funds tied to an account you run with is asking for trouble. If nothing else, if that SIN is ever discovered to be false you can bet the funds will be siezed in a nanosecond.

Just my $0.02
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DireRadiant
post Feb 25 2010, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (Ranger @ Feb 25 2010, 01:31 PM) *
If I'm not mistaken, credit accounts are linked to SINs, so if they get a new fake SIN, they also need new credit accounts.


A numbered credit account is only 100 nuyen a month, see unwired p. 93. Include it in lifestyle costs if they have middle or better.
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Mongoose
post Feb 25 2010, 09:42 PM
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One simple way to move money without any potential for it being traced is use the credit to buy some durable commodity good (eg, gold) in physical form (as opposed to what most people get, a certificate saying they own some gold). Then sell those goods, with the proceeds being deposited in your new account.
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Mordinvan
post Feb 25 2010, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE (Mongoose @ Feb 25 2010, 02:42 PM) *
One simple way to move money without any potential for it being traced is use the credit to buy some durable commodity good (eg, gold) in physical form (as opposed to what most people get, a certificate saying they own some gold). Then sell those goods, with the proceeds being deposited in your new account.

Hence my poker chip example, as they don't lose value and only take minutes to exchange.
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Ancient History
post Feb 25 2010, 10:42 PM
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There's a section on money laundering in Vice.
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kjones
post Feb 25 2010, 10:47 PM
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QUOTE (Mongoose @ Feb 25 2010, 04:42 PM) *
One simple way to move money without any potential for it being traced is use the credit to buy some durable commodity good (eg, gold) in physical form (as opposed to what most people get, a certificate saying they own some gold). Then sell those goods, with the proceeds being deposited in your new account.


It seems to me that in 2072, it will be difficult to buy a large quantity of something like gold without leaving some kind of paper trail.
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hobgoblin
post Feb 25 2010, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (kjones @ Feb 25 2010, 11:47 PM) *
It seems to me that in 2072, it will be difficult to buy a large quantity of something like gold without leaving some kind of paper trail.

well, anything in large enough quantities will show up on someones radar. But as a real life example, CIA managed to shift a large amount of cocaine to fund various activities before it got spotted.

btw, i think there was a article a while back where it was speculated that the world economy was rescued to some degree by dirty money. That is, the large cartels and such have more money then they know what to do with it, and so invested in stocks and such that would may well crashed if not.
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Daylen
post Feb 25 2010, 11:28 PM
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where does it say that cash no longer exists?

Gold is always a good one for transfering wealth. well known gold coins generally dont get hit with much of a reduction in price when someone buys them.
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hobgoblin
post Feb 26 2010, 12:13 AM
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technically, cash can be anything. Gold coins are not so much cash as a certified amount of gold.
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Daylen
post Feb 26 2010, 12:21 AM
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sorry for my lack of clarity. where does it say only electronic versions of nuyen and dollars exist; there are no paper/cloth/whatever hard physical objects to represent money that have no electronic components.
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hobgoblin
post Feb 26 2010, 12:28 AM
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earlier versions mentioned physical nuyen (and some other currencies, like say the local one for tir tarngire) in passing, but i dont recall it being mentioned in SR4.

they probably exist, but given certified credsticks, anywhere but maybe the barrens would either raise and eyebrow if one attempted to pay with physical cash, or basically refuse it (sure, there is legal tender laws and all that. but those mostly cover debt and taxes, not buying something over the counter, and even then, you probably need a SIN to even be affected by those laws).

hell, it would not surprise me if the local barrens have some kind of IOU system going. Or even a local currency run by some syndicate or something, much like corp scrip.
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kzt
post Feb 26 2010, 01:12 AM
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If KE knows who you are and cares, just walk away. If its in accounts tagged to the IDs KE knows about just abandon it. Its not worth your life. KE will keep an eye on it and when you go to to get access to the money there will be "technical issues" that will take "just a few minutes" to resolve. So as the characters are sitting there waiting for the chip to get produced a large group of other people will be grabbing guns and heading out to meet them. However, the drones KE uses are a lot faster, so they will be waiting for them even if they make it out the door before the KE team does.

Then again, maybe it won't be tracked. "Do you feel lucky, punk?" Run away, then talk to a professional launderer about getting the money via cutouts and shells so it can't be traced.
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Cain
post Feb 26 2010, 01:24 AM
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I use routine "credstick swapping" via local fixers, fences, or even among the team. You sell a 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) credstick to a fixer for a 99 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) one. He gets a small transaction fee, which I usually absorb into the lifestyle costs. That way, it cannot be traced-- even if some illegal activity is linked to the credstick, you can legitimately say that you weren't involved-- you just got it from someone else. If you swap a credstick a few times over, you've really confused the trail, and nothing can be linked to you.
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