n00b question re: Set Up and Finishing Move Options

[Eryndur]

My adept has taken the Set Up and Finishing Move martial arts maneuvers. What kind of action is Set Up? Complex? Simple? Free? Also, if my only option in attacking is with melee, i.e. complex actions, isn't the use of Set Up and Finishing Move suboptimal? I mean, I'm getting a chance to deal more damage on the Finishing Move, and I'm giving up my next action. Isn't it more prudent to just attack normally each phase?

[Glyph]

Set up requires a complex action, like any other melee attack. It is not a very effective maneuver, since you are trading hits for mere bonus dice. It might have some marginal use if an enemy is soaking all of your normal attacks, since then the dice pool bonus will at least give you a slightly better chance of getting more damage with a single attack. Overall, though, I still consider it one of the more useless maneuvers.

[Karoline]

I agree. Setup is absurdly limited in its situational use. It basically takes a perfectly good melee attack that could have done damage, and converts it into bonus dice next time you want to attack them. Only way this could possibly be useful is if they are soaking all the damage you do, and an extra few dice might let you get in some damage. Of course if you're fighting something that strong, you've likely got bigger problems to worry about.

Finishing move is also of limited usefulness. It allows you to use your next action to attack now, instead of later. It doesn't grant any extra attacks or anything, just lets you jump up in the move order a bit. Might be marginally useful in allowing you to take advantage of attacking enemies while they are prone before they can stand up, but you'll rarely see much benefit from it.

Consider maneuvers that happen automatically, like kick which gives you a +1 reach (which translates into a +1 DP all the time), provided you are kicking your enemies, which there isn't much reason you couldn't do all the time.

[zergloli]

Finishing move is also of limited usefulness. It allows you to use your next action to attack now, instead of later. It doesn't grant any extra attacks or anything, just lets you jump up in the move order a bit. Might be marginally useful in allowing you to take advantage of attacking enemies while they are prone before they can stand up, but you'll rarely see much benefit from it.

Finishing Move allows you to make two attacks as one Complex action + one Simple action, so long as the first attack hits? Or am I reading it wrong?

[Karoline]

Finishing Move allows you to make two attacks as one Complex action + one Simple action, so long as the first attack hits? Or am I reading it wrong?

Afraid not. What happens is once you strike an opponent, you immediately get to make another attack. The extra attack takes the same action as an attack normally takes, which is a complex action. Since you only get one complex action and one free action and nothing else per IP, you would have burnt your current turn (With the possible exception of a free action) and your next turn (With the exception of a free action) to do two attacks back to back. You don't get much out of this maneuver, as it just lets you use an action from your next turn, which means when your next turn does come around, you won't be able to do anything.

[Eryndur]

Your responses confirm what I had been thinking. I was swayed initially by Set Up's text describing its usefulness when combined with Finishing Move, but it looks as if it ain't that grand. Thanks for the helps, guys!

[Glyph]

Set Up is lame, but I disagree with Karoline about Finishing Move. Being able to go out of sequence, making two attacks in a row, can be a huge advantage.

[Medicineman]

Full Offense & Finishing Move is a good combination (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
(my Fomori-Pitfighter is using it)

with a Combinationdance
Medicineman

[Karoline]

Set Up is lame, but I disagree with Karoline about Finishing Move. Being able to go out of sequence, making two attacks in a row, can be a huge advantage.

I don't know about huge, but it can be handy. It can also leave you being a big target. Since you've blown your next turn's complex action on an attack, if you get shot at before then, you won't be able to do a full defense to dodge.

[Professor Evil O...]

Being able to go out of sequence, making two attacks in a row, can be a huge advantage.

I definately agree. Anything that has the potential to take an opponent down now is a good thing. You might be able stop your opponent from attacking back, say by emptying his clip into you at point blank range. Or you may need to disable an opponent quickly before they raise an alert. Or get a second chance to grapple or disarm an opponent. To put it another way...Wouldn't you want an ability that let you take an extra shooting action or cast a spell out of sequence? For a HTH character making another attack right away is just as useful.

[Aerospider]

The main benefit of the set up maneuver is that the target only gets the one damage resistance roll, where had it been two normal attacks he would get one for each.

I still agree that this is underpowered, though, since sacrificing those first net hits is also sacrificing the base power of your attack as well just for a few extra possible hits. If your set-up yielded three net successes and you have a base DV of 4 then you're losing a 7 DV impact for an average of +1 DV on your next attack, which is pathetic.

So I have a house rule that adds the net hits from a set up straight on to the next attack against the same target. This makes it a rather strong maneuver, but since the target (usually) gets to act in between the set up and the attack (and thereby can negate the set up by hitting the martial artist or fleeing the combat, etc.) it feels balanced.

WRT finishing move, don't forget that the target gets a -1 modifier for defending against another attack since his last action. That plus the acting-out-of-turn advantage makes it about right for me.

[Glyph]

Full Offense & Finishing Move is a good combination (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
(my Fomori-Pitfighter is using it)

with a Combinationdance
Medicineman

Full offense is a very dangerous maneuver... to the character using it. For a mere +2 dice pool bonus, you completely lose the ability to defend yourself until your next action phase. Not worth it from my POV.

[McCummhail]

Finishing move enables you to immediately
capitalize on a grapple (submission) before
the opponent has a chance to break free.

I found out while running a game that a troll,
with even moderate strength and body
who has a preference for grappling,
can use finishing move to finish most 1v1 fights.

[Thanee]

Finishing Move is very powerful.

It's not something you use all the time, but in the right situation, like when you sneak up on someone you need to get down quick, it's awesome.


Likewise Full Offense is very good.

You only cannot defend against melee attacks. Big deal, if noone is attacking you in melee (which is a rather common case).

Bye
Thanee

[Medicineman]

Full offense is a very dangerous maneuver... to the character using it. For a mere +2 dice pool bonus, you completely lose the ability to defend yourself until your next action phase. Not worth it from my POV.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Thats where the Finishing moves comes in Handy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

with ea very short Dance
Medicineman

[sn0mm1s]

How does Finishing Move work against multiple targets?

For instance, if there are 2 targets within 1 meter of each other you can perform a melee attack to both as long as you split your dice pool.

Can you use Finishing Move on one? both?
If both does it take up your next 2 actions? or just one?

It would appear that Finishing Move could be awesome against multiple targets.

[Shrike30]

Finishing Move is also useful when fighting multiple targets because it lets you wipe one of them out before they hit back, reducing Friend In Melee modifiers in addition to reducing the odds they'll beat the tar out of you.

Finishing move is incredibly useful on the surprise round, against an opponent who can't defend against you. A character who isn't built to be a melee monster (say, a spec-ops guy with his fighting knife trying to slit someone's throat) isn't necessarily going to kill the sneak-attack target in one shot, so that target will be injured but still able to set off alarms, yell in surprise, or what-have-you. Getting TWO shots (that he can't defend against) on an unsuspecting target is the shit, honestly, especially if you start out with the first one being something like an attack to knock down.

[Udoshi]

Set Up is rather useful if you need to stack up extra bonus dice for a roll, or get a lot of net hits to damage a target. Like Hardened armor on a drone or spirit. Or perhaps for Herding, which lets you move people around like chess pieces on the battlefield.

Full Offense is amazing for a gunfighter, because you can only not-defend against Melee attacks. Ranged is A-okay.

Is there any reason you can't use Finishing move to Street Fighter Combo people until they drop? Punch->finishing move->finising move->finishing move? (Aside from being limited by passes?)

I think my personal favorite has got to be Focus Will, because you can use super martial arts training to focus your thoughts on big Drain rolls, for Magicians/mysadepts.

[pbangarth]

I concur that Finishing Move is useful for eliminating an opponent before he can fight back/raise an alarm. Particularly for a character who is unlikely to do killing damage in one attack. I don't think you can 'borrow ahead' an infinite number of times, though. Once is it as far as I can tell.

[pbangarth]

I think my personal favorite has got to be Focus Will, because you can use super martial arts training to focus your thoughts on big Drain rolls, for Magicians/mysadepts.

Yes, many times, for example in Conjuring, the character has the time to spend a complex action to build his WIL. +2 WIL means a lot, especially when it is so cheap to get it.

[Thanee]

Yep, for a magician, those 2 extra dice can be really handy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For a martial artist, that maneuver is rather useless, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[knasser]

I'm afraid you've all missed something. Set-up lets you add the dice to your next attack. Your next attack can be another Set-up maneuver. This isn't unbalanced, you're still capped by your skill rating, but it does make it easier to get up to your skill rating.

We had a thread on this quite a while ago. Set-up isn't great (even once you realise you can perform it in sequence), but it helps a little in the scenario of very skilled martial artists vs. unskilled bricks. For example it can be quite frustrating to have some elven adept type, the gets up at 05:00 to practice, etc. realise that the troll bouncer at the local bar is wiping the floor with them the first time the player tries to fight. Of course that's not unrealistic as trolls are huge. Still, it would be nice for the martial artist types to have some hope against any ganger that happens to be a troll or bothered putting on their armour jacket that morning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) A martial artist type with 3IP can use those IP to spend the first round full dodging / blocking their enemy (assuming that the enemy only has 1 IP), then spend the next two IP using Set-up. Assuming that the quick and light character goes first next turn (which they probably will), then they can go for a powerful attack with probably their full skill rating, and if they have Finishing Move, they can recoup some of their lost attacks. As previously noted, your opponent also loses a die for it being the second attack they defend against.

Also note the effect of Edge. +4 or +5 dice is good in itself if you're trying to get through a high Body / Armour rating, but it becomes better still with an Edge re-roll.

Basically, Set-up and Finishing Move are situational as people say, but in the event of a very skilled fighter going up against a less skilled / slower but very tough character, it goes some way to making the skilled fighter have a chance. I used it with an elven adept to good effect, though he still struggled to beat a moderately armoured troll.

K.