Urban vs Sprawl, No, not Urban Brawl. Options

[FriendoftheDork]

Hey guys.

I've been playing SR for some time but I've never actually been to the typical setting city of Seattle, or USA at all for that matter. I typically assumed it was going to be somewhat like what you see in big movies from New York, with huge skyscrapers and the runners living in their Shadows. I assumed Sprawl was just another word for "big city" or "slum."

That changed after google maps. Now I've been able to see what the Greater Seattle Area is in RL and the vastness of it all, and how horizontal the architecture is astounded me. It seems to me that a lot of people live in one story buildings, and not necessarily just the rich. Apartment buildings are of course more common closer to the downtown of Seattle, but Suburbia seem to be the case for most cases, especially in the rest of King County.

Obviously, things have changed in 60+ years. The world and America has suffered cataclysmic events of both geographical and societal nature. Seattle has grown to encompass it's suburbs and the area around it, and places like the prosperous high-class tech-savvy Redmond has become a slum (thank you Microsoft!). Still, it seems to me these changes happened fairly early in the 21st century, so by that rationale places like Redmond Barrens should still have a lot of old decrepit housing dating back to the previous century, even if these are mostly in ruins. That means endless large streets, rows upon rows of one.story buildings and Cul-de-Sacs. I imagine most of these buildings still intact have been taken over by gangs and turned into fortresses, and the rubble has turned the streets a lot narrower, but still...

Then there is the word Sprawl itself, which indicate urban growth spreading horizontally rather than vertically. A fairly inefficient way of making living space, unless you have vast areas available, like they do in that part of the States.

So what do you guys think? Are there skyscrapers and apartment blocks everywhere, or do we have large open areas and rows of one-story houses right next to Coffin hotels? Is space a premium, or is premium space populated to the maximum?

[Tias]

As always, it depends. I'd use both kinds of imagery, depending on where we are. Seattle would be mixture of both, if I understand the setting correctly (never been to the states).

Remember that in Shadowrun a lot of the world's population has been eliminated by plagues and war, so the necessity to accomodate rising overpopulation is not as big an issue in 2072.

[FriendoftheDork]

As always, it depends. I'd use both kinds of imagery, depending on where we are. Seattle would be mixture of both, if I understand the setting correctly (never been to the states).

Remember that in Shadowrun a lot of the world's population has been eliminated by plagues and war, so the necessity to accomodate rising overpopulation is not as big an issue in 2072.

Yeah that's true, but remember the amerindians have taken over most of usa, I'd expect that's why Seattle Metroplex has such high population.

Also despite worldwide population loss the loss of usable space because of pollution and ecological disasters means space could still be a premium.

For an example, I live in a nation with a very low population per square mile, but space is still a premium in the capitol and housing prices are very high because of it (and because of a generally high standard of living).

[crash2029]

Heres how I see it:

Downtown Seattle- Like an extremely overcast, damp, Manhattan. Only noisier. Because of the ubiquity of AR and ultra-cheap video screens think of Times Square only EVERYWHERE!!!

Tacoma- Think Philidelphia with less class. Dirty, dingy, claustrophobic, damp, and smelly. Factories + port = Fishy Smog.

Redmond- Think slums of Rio. Shantytowns and decay. Predators and prey, mostly of the metahuman variety.

Puyallup- Think Capital Wasteland from Fallout 3. Rubble, toxic mud flats, and roving packs of gangs.

[Ascalaphus]

I think part of it has to do with the books that provided a lot of the setting cliches; the Sprawl series by William Gibson. Therein, everything from Boston to Atlanta has grown to one contiguous blob of population.


In Seattle, it makes a lot of sense. They had a lot of immigration when the NAN formed and expelled some pinkskins. SINless people likewise flock to the cities, because all the scavengeable resources are in the city.

Of course, in my view of Seattle, it has a lot more than 6 million inhabitants. Say, 20, but no-one really knows or cares. SINless are nearly half of that. Maybe more; no-one really knows or wants to know. The answer might be embarrassing.

[Saint Sithney]

Yeah, take the current density and triple it. That still leaves a lot of abandoned/open areas in the periphery, but any place that's safe or centrally located will have bigger buildings and more people in smaller spaces. So a two story apartment building with 100 m² of personal space becomes a four story building with 65 m² of space per apartment. Or basically, imagine it as it is now, but with buildings twice as big (or twice as packed together in regards to personal homes,) all with 2/3rds as much space per person.

I do think that, if current trends are any indication, there will be a lot more highrise apartments. Right now, cities in America are undergoing a trend towards re-urbanization and a trend away from home ownership. It's a combination of environmental concerns and the death of the middle class.

[FriendoftheDork]

Heres how I see it:

Downtown Seattle- Like an extremely overcast, damp, Manhattan. Only noisier. Because of the ubiquity of AR and ultra-cheap video screens think of Times Square only EVERYWHERE!!!

Tacoma- Think Philidelphia with less class. Dirty, dingy, claustrophobic, damp, and smelly. Factories + port = Fishy Smog.

Redmond- Think slums of Rio. Shantytowns and decay. Predators and prey, mostly of the metahuman variety.

Puyallup- Think Capital Wasteland from Fallout 3. Rubble, toxic mud flats, and roving packs of gangs.

I like this take on it. Also I've read that Redmond has housing projects (kinda like the projects in Baltimore.) Which I guess would be large apartment blocks for the poor.

[nezumi]

I like that Baltimore is known for its housing projects (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I've had trouble with the barrens as well. Some parts of Seattle are well described. To the north is more farmland. Some greenery, a lot of hydrponic factories, probably pretty well defended from looters and scavs though. The barrens I imagine being mixed pockets. You'll have a set of housing projects built up surrounded by burnt out retail spaces and brown, filthy green belts.

[FriendoftheDork]

I like that Baltimore is known for its housing projects (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I've had trouble with the barrens as well. Some parts of Seattle are well described. To the north is more farmland. Some greenery, a lot of hydrponic factories, probably pretty well defended from looters and scavs though. The barrens I imagine being mixed pockets. You'll have a set of housing projects built up surrounded by burnt out retail spaces and brown, filthy green belts.

"Known", as in I heard about it watching the Wire. It's known as a very violent city.

[ker'ion]

Don't maul me for not reading all of the SR books, but this is how I view the Seattle of 2070-ish:
Shinjuku district at night
Barren areas near the slums
Above the city
William Gibson's Sprawl off of Johnny Mnemonic for the slums
Add in a few more pictures for flavor:
Slums
More slums
Japan's lower areas

And for downtown:
Skyline

[Method]

After having lived in RL Seattle the past three years or so, I find it really hard to picture SR's Seattle as the tree-less concrete jungle devoid of vegetation everyone describes. There is greenery *everywhere* and plants you couldn't kill if you wanted to (like the thorny blackberry bushes, which grow like something out of "The Ruins"). Most of these plants have little construction value, but even if all the trees were cut down to build stuff there would still be lots of plants (and a lot less plastic, steel and concrete). It seems impossible to me that even in 80-ish years this would all change.

[Doc Byte]

Then there is the word Sprawl itself, which indicate urban growth spreading horizontally rather than vertically. A fairly inefficient way of making living space, unless you have vast areas available, like they do in that part of the States.

So what do you guys think? Are there skyscrapers and apartment blocks everywhere, or do we have large open areas and rows of one-story houses right next to Coffin hotels? Is space a premium, or is premium space populated to the maximum?

I'm living next door to one of the biggest RL urban regions in Europe (--->), that fits pretty well my imagination of the Saettle Megaplex. IMO a Megaplex isn't a Megacity like Mexico City or Rio but an urban region with several centers like the Rhine-Ruhr region or e.g. Greater New York.

[HappyDaze]

Also, it hardly rains 'all the time' in Seattle. The spring, summer, and early fall often sport sunny days and clear nights. When it does rain, it's commonly a transient light rain with sustained downpours being unusual.

However, I wouldn't picture too much of the sprawl moving up vertically. If anything, the area is less tectonically stable since the Awakening.

[FriendoftheDork]

After having lived in RL Seattle the past three years or so, I find it really hard to picture SR's Seattle as the tree-less concrete jungle devoid of vegetation everyone describes. There is greenery *everywhere* and plants you couldn't kill if you wanted to (like the thorny blackberry bushes, which grow like something out of "The Ruins"). Most of these plants have little construction value, but even if all the trees were cut down to build stuff there would still be lots of plants (and a lot less plastic, steel and concrete). It seems impossible to me that even in 80-ish years this would all change.

Have you looked at pictures of Seattle in 1910-1930? Can you see massive changes in the area that residents of that time period couldn't see happening in Seattle?

Alot can actually happen in 70+ years. I believe greenery and vegetation will remain to some degree, although heavy polution will take it's toll. Nice areas like Bellevue will probably still have streets lined with beautifully managed trees, bushes hedges etc. while porer places will have mostly weeds.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

It starts with suburban sprawl. The people who can, move out of the city, but they don't go any farther than they have to, because of what their former home offers. So all the vacant land in and near the metroplex fills in. Then the population centers urbanize, and start getting built upwards.

[Faraday]

Have you looked at pictures of Seattle in 1910-1930? Can you see massive changes in the area that residents of that time period couldn't see happening in Seattle?

Alot can actually happen in 70+ years. I believe greenery and vegetation will remain to some degree, although heavy polution will take it's toll. Nice areas like Bellevue will probably still have streets lined with beautifully managed trees, bushes hedges etc. while porer places will have mostly weeds.

Sounds about right, although certain areas of town have retained a striking resemblance to what they were a century ago (downtown waterfront, especially pike place market). I imagine Seattle 2070 as taller, dirtier, and a lot less green. I can understand it'd be hard to picture, though, seeing as how it is pretty difficult to be anywhere down here and not have at least SOME plants visible.

[endou_kenji]

As a citizen of Rio, I can guarantee that the city changed from heaven to hell in less than 50 years... and I mean it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[FriendoftheDork]

As a citizen of Rio, I can guarantee that the city changed from heaven to hell in less than 50 years... and I mean it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I'm betting Redmond Barrens would look alot like the slums of Rio - low houses, lots of crime, gangs ruling, police dares not enter etc.

Citade de Deus was set in Rio, right?

[Method]

I'm betting Redmond Barrens would look alot like the slums of Rio - low houses, lots of crime, gangs ruling, police dares not enter etc.

These conditions existed in Cabrini Green, Chicago USA up until about 15 years ago...

[FriendoftheDork]

These conditions existed in Cabrini Green, Chicago USA up until about 15 years ago...

That bad? Gangs of children roaming the streets with ak-47s? Huh.

[nezumi]

Don't be ridiculous. They'd only buy domestic.

[FriendoftheDork]

Don't be ridiculous. They'd only buy domestic.

They buy them? 0_0

[Warlordtheft]

Most of the weapons were pistols (some hunting rifles or semi-autos), and the occasional full auto. Saw that on the war...I mean history channel.

[nezumi]

They buy them? 0_0

Of course they buy them. You think an established dealer is going to break into someone's house on his own?? There are people who will do that sort of thing for you, for less than you'd have to pay off the cop when you're caught.

[endou_kenji]

I'm betting Redmond Barrens would look alot like the slums of Rio - low houses, lots of crime, gangs ruling, police dares not enter etc.

Citade de Deus was set in Rio, right?

It's not only set in Rio, that's the harsh reality of Rio's favelas... crime runs rampant and police only goes there to get their daily/weekly/monthly bribes.
The Cidade de Deus movie is based on the growth of what came to be one of the most feared slums in Rio back in the 80s.