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> Max out the BP system, How much karma can you squeeze
Omenowl
post Mar 1 2010, 04:33 PM
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Pick the most obscene character build using the 400bp and see how with equivalent karma build.

Negative qualities must be balanced with equal number of positive.
No more than 20 points in contacts
Usual limits for the build
All metatypes/races acceptable
5x attribute cost

Good luck
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Draco18s
post Mar 1 2010, 05:03 PM
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Easy. Pick a metavariant troll, max his strength (using the SURGE, Exceptional, and genetweak qualities for extra maximums). Then max out his skills the same way.

This will very easily make the karma limit look small due to the fact that in BP the 10th point of strength costs....10 BP. In karma it costs 50.
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Omenowl
post Mar 1 2010, 06:35 PM
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ok so what does it come out as the karma equivalent total?
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Saint Sithney
post Mar 1 2010, 06:36 PM
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I got 995 karma.

Pick a troll mage. 55 BP -> 110 karma
Surge class I for metagenetic Str. Worthless negative qualities = 10 meta and 70 regular. -20bp -> -40 karma
Bod, Str, Cha, Log and Int all softmaxed. Will and Mag softmaxed as well. 240BP -> 575 karma
Edge maxed 65BP -> 100 karma
One language at 6. Four languages at 4. One at 2 0BP -> 70 karma
Buy five lvl 2 power focuses 50BP -> 100 karma
Bind five lvl 2 powerfocues 10BP -> 80 karma

BP 240+65+55+50+10-20 = 400
Karma 575+110+100+100+80+70-40 = 995

Probably could have done better if I'd taken the In Debt quality, hardmaxed magic instead of egde and used the exra 45k nuyen to buy another focus to bind. That was a real karma sink.

EDIT: Changed to Fomori w/ In Debt lvl6 and bought/bound a level 2 spellcasting focus. dropped Cha by 1 pt.

Total karma 1024.
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Omenowl
post Mar 1 2010, 07:06 PM
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Qualities should not factor into the equation. They should be cost neutral so positive15 qualities should balance with 15 negative points.

Did the karma generation use anything for metavariant/types? I thought that would have been 0.

This may drop your total down a bit.
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Karoline
post Mar 1 2010, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE (Omenowl @ Mar 1 2010, 02:06 PM) *
Qualities should not factor into the equation. They should be cost neutral so positive15 qualities should balance with 15 negative points.

Did the karma generation use anything for metavariant/types? I thought that would have been 0.

This may drop your total down a bit.


Karma cost for metatype is equal to the BP cost for the metatype. Let me see what I can figure up. I know reasonably well how to get the most BP from a Karma build and the most karma from a BP build.
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Sponge
post Mar 1 2010, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 1 2010, 02:08 PM) *
Karma cost for metatype is equal to the BP cost for the metatype.


Is that a house rule, or is there errata now for RC ?
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Saint Sithney
post Mar 1 2010, 07:43 PM
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Metavariants, like Formori, cost 2XBP in karma.
Certain qualities will change the character's base stats like the metagenetic strength making the softmax for a troll 10 instead of 9. This means instead of buying from 5-9 you're buying from 6-10 which costs 5 more karma per point or 20 more karma. The net change in bp is null.
The In Debt quality gives 30,000 more nuyen which can be used to buy another foci which is far more expensive to bind with karma than bp.

Edit: I did just realize that if I switch the Metagentic Improvement to Logic, I get 5 less karma from stats, but can get 9 more karma from free knowledge skills.. Net gain of 4 karma.

New High Score!
1028 karma
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Shinobi Killfist
post Mar 1 2010, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (Sponge @ Mar 1 2010, 03:31 PM) *
Is that a house rule, or is there errata now for RC ?


There is not an errata yet that I am aware of, but the German edition has been changed and the changes reported to us. Who knows if it will ever hit the English version and if it does will there be any differences.

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Karoline
post Mar 1 2010, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (Sponge @ Mar 1 2010, 02:31 PM) *
Is that a house rule, or is there errata now for RC ?


It is in SR4A or so I keep hearing. It is also definitely in the German version of RC.

QUOTE
Metavariants, like Formori cost 2XBP in karma.

I've never heard this from anywhere.

Anyway, here you have it, the ultimate karma sink.
[ Spoiler ]


BP cost is 400. Karma cost is 1278.

Could have gotten a few more karma out of it if I had spent that last 50k on another Centering and Masking Foci, but decided not to for the sake of not having redundant foci. If you really want every last karma, change that out and you make the total cost go down by 8 karma then back up by 24, which brings the final cost up to 1294 karma. Hmm, and if you -really- wanted to you could trade the power focus in for a third set, and drop some more contact points and it would net you up to 1298 karma. Could also trade in the two weapon foci for two more masking foci to bring it up to 1302 karma, but then you've got 8 foci which are all of only two types which you can't use. I figure with the way I did it you at least have a marginally viable character (Though with basically no skills). Actually depending on the powers you get, running into this character could be -really- scary.
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Saint Sithney
post Mar 1 2010, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 1 2010, 11:54 AM) *
I've never heard this from anywhere.


Build Point Conversions
For Karma-based character conversion, the costs for metatype
(or other character options, such as shapeshifters, free spirits,
AIs, etc.) and qualities are equal to twice the standard Build Point
cost (BP x 2) in Karma. When buying gear, each point of Karma
can be traded for 2,500 nuyen.

RC p42

That's probably where the confusion comes from..
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Karoline
post Mar 1 2010, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 1 2010, 03:11 PM) *
That's probably where the confusion comes from..


Yeah, especially because under the actual rules for the karmagen system, it says that metatype doesn't cost anything.

Well, it is an 80 karma swing in either direction, meaning my build gets anywhere from about 1200 to about 1400 karma out of 400 BP, depending on if you go with no karma cost, regular karma cost, or double karma cost for metatype.
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Omenowl
post Mar 1 2010, 10:05 PM
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I don't have my book with me, but Karoline with genetic optimization couldn't you get that strength to 13 as you aren't maxing out the attribute?
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Karoline
post Mar 1 2010, 11:12 PM
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QUOTE (Omenowl @ Mar 1 2010, 05:05 PM) *
I don't have my book with me, but Karoline with genetic optimization couldn't you get that strength to 13 as you aren't maxing out the attribute?


Oh, yeah, should be able to hit 13 soft maxing it, kept loosing track of what was maxed to what. Okay, so add a point of Str to bring it up to 13 for a cost of 50/315 and take off 9/18 points from contact (making it a 1/1) and 1/2 points from equipment. Net gain of 45 karma, bringing it up to 1323 karma.

Edit: Now for fun I'm going to do the reverse and try to make a character that gets as much BP as possible out of the karma system (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Karoline
post Mar 1 2010, 11:39 PM
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Okay, so looks like the best you can do is 750 BP from a 750 Karma character. I couldn't find anything that cost more BP than Karma. Start with human, raise all stats to 2, then grab every skill in the book (and chemistry and arcana, but no magic or resonance skills) which is 60 skills, and raise them all to 2 and spec them (minus exotic weapon and exotic vehicle), that brings you up to 676 karma spent at 1:1 ratio. Then you just grab more exotic weapon and vehicle skills at 2 until you reach 750. Drop a spec somewhere if you need to even the stuff out for 750 points.

Doesn't play well at all of course, but you do have a truest of true jack of all trades, with a DP of 4 in everything and alot of 6s floating around from specs.

I'm sure you could easily hit around 600 BP from a character that you'd actually play.
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Draco18s
post Mar 1 2010, 11:53 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 1 2010, 06:39 PM) *
I couldn't find anything that cost more BP than Karma.


Conversation with a friend of mine, we tried to do the reverse of the OP: least karma needed for a 400 BP build. Which as it turns out is 400 karma equivalent. 2 in all stats, 1 + spec in all skills.
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Saint Sithney
post Mar 1 2010, 11:53 PM
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So, it looks like BP is more open to abuse. Sounds like a winning judgment for karmagen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 1 2010, 06:53 PM) *
So, it looks like BP is more open to abuse. Sounds like a winning judgment for karmagen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Well, not exactly. Remember that going from 400 BP to 750 BP is a 87.5% increase Going from 750 karma to 1323 karma is a 76.4% increase.

So in a way the karmagen system is more open to 'abuse' but it should be noted that the Max Karma character was far more viable in play than the Max BP character was. I'm not sure if you could quite manage at 76.4% increase of the BP cost of a character and still come up with a viable character. That'd be something like stats at 3s and a ton of skills speced at 3s. 6s for everything and spec'ed 8s just doesn't sound like it would cut it to me.

I figure as the numbers approach normal you start getting into your more viable characters. I'd imagine you could maintain around a 50% increase in the other system's max and create viable characters, and that would go either way. It is just one would always be a character with a bunch of maxed out stuff, and the other would always be a very rounded character, as can be seen from taking it to the extremes.
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Saint Sithney
post Mar 2 2010, 12:14 AM
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So it looks like karmagen produces more viable characters. Sounds like a winning judgment for karmagen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Udoshi
post Mar 2 2010, 01:30 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 1 2010, 05:14 PM) *
So it looks like karmagen produces more viable characters. Sounds like a winning judgment for karmagen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


Both systems are incredibly abusable, depending on how much book-fu you have. One encourages specialization, and getting the little shit with karma. The other encourages strength through diversity.

The thing that makes karmagen superior for me is that it produces more -flavorful- characters. In karmagen, getting 1 level of unarmed combat because you grew up with siblings unarmed combat is 4 karma, or 0.005% of your total. In BPgen, the same skill is four build points, or 0.01% of your total. Or a potential twenty thousand nuyen. Its even worse with with specializations, because they cost the same amount of points in both chargen systems.

Now ask yourself "Do I want to be able to punch my brother?" or "Do i want a car/bike with guns on it?".

Yeah. Given the type of players shadowrun attracts, that's why bp gen characters are min-maxed like hell.
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toturi
post Mar 2 2010, 01:42 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 2 2010, 08:14 AM) *
So it looks like karmagen produces more viable characters. Sounds like a winning judgment for karmagen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Karma gen tend to produce characters that do not have minimal numbers. That does not mean that they are actually viable. Moderate numbers in all aspects is a sure way of dying last, but not a good way of making sure you are the last man standing. Sounds like a no-win judgement for karmagen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 02:45 AM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Mar 1 2010, 08:30 PM) *
Both systems are incredibly abusable, depending on how much book-fu you have. One encourages specialization, and getting the little shit with karma. The other encourages strength through diversity.

The thing that makes karmagen superior for me is that it produces more -flavorful- characters. In karmagen, getting 1 level of unarmed combat because you grew up with siblings unarmed combat is 4 karma, or 0.005% of your total. In BPgen, the same skill is four build points, or 0.01% of your total. Or a potential twenty thousand nuyen. Its even worse with with specializations, because they cost the same amount of points in both chargen systems.

Now ask yourself "Do I want to be able to punch my brother?" or "Do i want a car/bike with guns on it?".

Yeah. Given the type of players shadowrun attracts, that's why bp gen characters are min-maxed like hell.


I agree very much. It is the fact that you can take those small oddball skills without worrying about it too much. You percentages are off though. It is 1% of your total for BP, and .53% for Karma. But more than the fact that it is half price in karma, is the fact that the same 1% BP expenditure could instead be raising a skill to 6, which would cost far more karma. BP is set up to encourage you to max out anything that you increase, because increasing it to max and from min are the same cost under BP, but much more expensive in Karma. Like you said, BP encourages you to 'get all the little shit' with karma after the game starts. This means you'll have a nice well rounded character about 50 karma into the game.

QUOTE
Karma gen tend to produce characters that do not have minimal numbers. That does not mean that they are actually viable. Moderate numbers in all aspects is a sure way of dying last, but not a good way of making sure you are the last man standing. Sounds like a no-win judgement for karmagen grinbig.gif


Karmagen certainly encourages more general spreading of your skills, but it certainly doesn't disallow being good at something. Keep in mind that getting a skill to 6 costs 24 BP or 44 Karma, which is slightly better than the 'golden' 2:1 BP:Karma ratio. Same thing occurs with stats unless you have a troll or something. Elf soft maxing charisma from 3 to 7 costs 40 BP or 110 Karma. That's worse than the 2:1 ratio, but still doable, especially since being an elf in the first place didn't cost as much.

What karmagen really discourages is trolls and bear shifters, and generally going over about 7 in any stat.
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toturi
post Mar 2 2010, 02:57 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 10:45 AM) *
Karmagen certainly encourages more general spreading of your skills, but it certainly doesn't disallow being good at something. Keep in mind that getting a skill to 6 costs 24 BP or 44 Karma, which is slightly better than the 'golden' 2:1 BP:Karma ratio. Same thing occurs with stats unless you have a troll or something. Elf soft maxing charisma from 3 to 7 costs 40 BP or 110 Karma. That's worse than the 2:1 ratio, but still doable, especially since being an elf in the first place didn't cost as much.

What karmagen really discourages is trolls and bear shifters, and generally going over about 7 in any stat.

44/24 =1.8
750/400=1.875

It is only very slightly better than the actual BP:karma ratio. That is for skill.

110/40=2.75, in addition to the fixed exchange rate of 2:1 for race (if you charge for race). In both attribute and race, the BP:karma ratio is worse than the actual 1.875.

Karmagen does not disallow being good at something, but it does discourage you from being really good at something. To me being good is necessary to get you to the point where you can make use of what you are really good at. But if you got nothing you really good at, simply just being good doesn't cut it.
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Squinky
post Mar 2 2010, 03:07 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 1 2010, 02:43 PM) *
Edit: I did just realize that if I switch the Metagentic Improvement to Logic, I get 5 less karma from stats, but can get 9 more karma from free knowledge skills.. Net gain of 4 karma.

New High Score!
1028 karma


Hmmm, I thought karmagen didn't give free knowledge skills?
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Draco18s
post Mar 2 2010, 03:08 AM
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QUOTE (Squinky @ Mar 1 2010, 10:07 PM) *
Hmmm, I thought karmagen didn't give free knowledge skills?


Free knowledge in BP => more karma "spent" in karmagen.
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