Max out the BP system, How much karma can you squeeze Options

[Karoline]

Yes, there is a difference, but what I mentioned is not that. A min-maxed specialist is not a munchkin. A munchkin breaks the rules, a min-maxed character stays within the rules. A soft maxed edge helps to confirm the shot.

I consider having nothing but 1s and 5s to be munchkin. I also don't see any reason for edge for a sniper. The character has something like 16 dice to shoot, and the target won't even get a chance to defend themselves. I hardly think any extra dice are needed to 'confirm the shot', and 1 edge is as good as 20 for rerolling if you totally botch a shot.

Like I said, what you're saying isn't anything to do with character effectiveness, it is entirely to do with costing as much karma as possible.

As I keep saying, unless you go out of your way you're going to get a better/cheaper character out of karmagen.

[CeeJay]

However, I would admit it seems that karmagen remains the powergame build system of choice. Interesting.

That's my experience too. Usually, Karmagen characters will come out ahead of building point characters.

With the rare exception of awakened high-edge characters, since magic and edge karma costs fall under the cap of 375 karma for attributes...

-CJ

[Draco18s]

A munchkin breaks the rules, a min-maxed character stays within the rules.

Technically the munchkin only bends them, rather than breaking them outright. This is how you get D&D characters who throw 10 foot diameter lead spheres (because they're the only logical thing a strength 80 character could find that would be heavy enough yet "throwable" within the rules).

Or how you get a character that moves at the speed of light* (unfortunately it was due to poor wording on a spell** and was fixed with errata).

* Chuck E. Cheese
**An assumption was made about a spell due to odd wording that was untrue and quickly clarified by errata.

[Jaid]

Like I keep saying, BP is good at making trolls with maxed out body and strength, and that is about it, otherwise Karmagen is likely to give you the same character for a smaller price.

have you tested maxed-out technomancers yet? i suspect you might find a second archetype that benefits from BP chargen...

[Karoline]

have you tested maxed-out technomancers yet? i suspect you might find a second archetype that benefits from BP chargen...

I haven't actually. Never made a technomancer.

A quick thought would put them roughly in line with mages I figure. Only thing that might shift this drastically is the BP:Karma ratio on complex forms. AFB ATM, so no idea what the costs are, but as long as they aren't above 2:1 they should come out slightly better under karmagen (not even counting the option to submerge). Anyone happen to have a TM handy that you could post and/or convert to see how the costs compare?

I prefer having already made ones as opposed to specifically making them for the purpose of comparison because ones specifically made for comparison are generally going to be built differently in favor of one system or the other.

However, if someone wants, make a 'maxed-out' (I honestly don't know what exactly that would mean) and post it and we can look at comparison.

[Jaid]

under BP chargen, complex forms cost 1 BP per rating point. under karmagen, they cost equal to a knowledge skill. as such, complex forms *start* at a 2:1 BP:karma ratio, and only gets more in favor of BP from there. (over the course of rating 1 to rating 6, ignoring the cost of resonance 6, the average is 3.66666... if you're soft-maxing resonance to 5, and bring a CF from 1-5, it's a 3.2:1 BP:karma ratio on average)

the only thing i am aware of with a better BP:karma ratio is binding a power focus. (on a side note, if someone was to create a magician and bind a ton of assorted focuses, including a power focus, it might come out better to use BP chargen as well. would have to be a lot of focuses though, i would guess)

[toturi]

I consider having nothing but 1s and 5s to be munchkin. I also don't see any reason for edge for a sniper. The character has something like 16 dice to shoot, and the target won't even get a chance to defend themselves. I hardly think any extra dice are needed to 'confirm the shot', and 1 edge is as good as 20 for rerolling if you totally botch a shot.

Like I said, what you're saying isn't anything to do with character effectiveness, it is entirely to do with costing as much karma as possible.

As I keep saying, unless you go out of your way you're going to get a better/cheaper character out of karmagen.

I consider having nothing but 1s and 5s to be good and effective character building under BP. The effect of which happens to cost as much karma as possible. Your character's Edge is neither here nor there, as you said, 1 Edge is as good as 20 for rerolls, therefore either leave it at 2 or max it out.

Having 1s and 5s is not going out of my way, it is within acceptable chargen limits and is standard operating procedure for using BP as far as I am concerned.

[Karoline]

I consider having nothing but 1s and 5s to be good and effective character building under BP. The effect of which happens to cost as much karma as possible. Your character's Edge is neither here nor there, as you said, 1 Edge is as good as 20 for rerolls, therefore either leave it at 2 or max it out.

Having 1s and 5s is not going out of my way, it is within acceptable chargen limits and is standard operating procedure for using BP as far as I am concerned.

Really? Because I don't think I've ever seen a GM that will accept a 1s/5s character, but maybe that is just chance on my part. Besides, that is another artifice of the BP system, it doesn't say anything to the effectiveness of the character. A character with a good selection of 2s in their skills is better than a character with nothing but 4s in a very few skills, but BP hugely supports the latter because of the changeoff between karma purchases after the game starts and BP purchases beforehand. I like the fact that karmagen eliminates that along with all the other things about it.

Hmm, sounds like technomancer might get the short end of the stick in Karmagen, as if they need a shorter end.

[toturi]

Really? Because I don't think I've ever seen a GM that will accept a 1s/5s character, but maybe that is just chance on my part. Besides, that is another artifice of the BP system, it doesn't say anything to the effectiveness of the character. A character with a good selection of 2s in their skills is better than a character with nothing but 4s in a very few skills, but BP hugely supports the latter because of the changeoff between karma purchases after the game starts and BP purchases beforehand. I like the fact that karmagen eliminates that along with all the other things about it.

Hmm, sounds like technomancer might get the short end of the stick in Karmagen, as if they need a shorter end.

Well, you haven't played in any of my games, I am a GM that will gladly accept an all 1/5 character. That artifice of the BP system with respect to skills is that there will be a broad base of skills at 1 and a sharp peak at 6 with perhaps some 4s. I see karmagen supports having a broad selection of skills at 2s, 2 skills at 5s with perhaps some at 4s.

[Glyph]

One area where BP is more optimal - some of the infected characters. In BP, nosferatu spend 150 BP on race and get 120 BP worth of Attribute bonuses. In Karmagen, they spend 300 BP on race (it is treated as a Quality, remember), and get 140 Karma in Attribute bonuses - and have to pay inflated costs to get those Attributes any higher.

Free spirits, on the other hand, are much more powerful under Karmagen. Would you rather spend 250 Karma, and have 500 Karma left to spend, or spend 250 BP, and have 150 BP left to spend?

[Karoline]

Infected is a quality? Doesn't that prevent anyone at all from getting it since is far over the 35 BP max on qualities?

[AKWeaponsSpecial...]

Infected is a quality? Doesn't that prevent anyone at all from getting it since is far over the 35 BP max on qualities?

Infected, Drake, and SURGE qualities don't count towards your Quality BP max

[toturi]

One area where BP is more optimal - some of the infected characters. In BP, nosferatu spend 150 BP on race and get 120 BP worth of Attribute bonuses. In Karmagen, they spend 300 BP on race (it is treated as a Quality, remember), and get 140 Karma in Attribute bonuses - and have to pay inflated costs to get those Attributes any higher.

Free spirits, on the other hand, are much more powerful under Karmagen. Would you rather spend 250 Karma, and have 500 Karma left to spend, or spend 250 BP, and have 150 BP left to spend?

Infected and Drake characters, though less for Drakes. For the purposes of this thread however due to the limitations posted by the OP, only some of the lesser BP cost Infected are valid, which is why I did not post my Really Smart and Knowledgeable and Well Connected Nosferatu.

The karma costs of the troll Infected can easily exceed 750 as well.