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> Character Creation: Mage, I think I'm doing it wrong...
Nifft
post Mar 2 2010, 03:12 PM
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Hello Dumpshock! I'm just getting into Shadowrun, and trying to make a Mage character, but I think I'm missing some rules.

For example, from reading through threads here, it looks like one cannot start out with a Force 5 Power Focus... so what kind of Foci should I take?

Here are the spells I picked, and my reasoning for them:

Stunbolt -- anti-spirit, anti-mage, "soft kill" for when we want someone to interrogate, and it's low Drain.
Heal -- we don't have a dedicated medic.
Ignite (physical) -- utility spell, last-ditch combat spell.
Influence (mental) -- "social combat" spell.
Levitate -- utility, replaces Athletics skill group.
Physical Barrier -- defensive combat spell, can protect the whole party.

For my Spirit Mentor, I picked the Fire-Bringer, but Dog looks really good too -- I'm not playing the kind of guy who would lightly leave his companions behind.

Is there a guide to making a mage? I'm looking to be useful and to survive, rather than make my GM cry, so any broken stuff to avoid would be nice too.

Thanks, -- N
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Starmage21
post Mar 2 2010, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE (Nifft @ Mar 2 2010, 10:12 AM) *
Hello Dumpshock! I'm just getting into Shadowrun, and trying to make a Mage character, but I think I'm missing some rules.

For example, from reading through threads here, it looks like one cannot start out with a Force 5 Power Focus... so what kind of Foci should I take?

Here are the spells I picked, and my reasoning for them:

Stunbolt -- anti-spirit, anti-mage, "soft kill" for when we want someone to interrogate, and it's low Drain.
Heal -- we don't have a dedicated medic.
Ignite (physical) -- utility spell, last-ditch combat spell.
Influence (mental) -- "social combat" spell.
Levitate -- utility, replaces Athletics skill group.
Physical Barrier -- defensive combat spell, can protect the whole party.

For my Spirit Mentor, I picked the Fire-Bringer, but Dog looks really good too -- I'm not playing the kind of guy who would lightly leave his companions behind.

Is there a guide to making a mage? I'm looking to be useful and to survive, rather than make my GM cry, so any broken stuff to avoid would be nice too.

Thanks, -- N


If youre going to use Heal to fulfill the role of medic, learn first aid too, and get a rating 6 medkit. Use them in conjunction. First aid first, Heal spell second.

Drop Physical Barrier, it sux unless you wanna roll edge or have a fuckton of casting dice.

drop ignite, get a lighter or a portable cutting torch.

improved reaction + Armor spell + that deflection spell = never get hurt by bullets again! Dont forget sustaining focuses (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 03:23 PM
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If you grab the restricted gear quality from RC you can grab an F4 power focus for 100k, then bind it for 4 BP.

You need to be more specific on what you're looking for advice on. 'Mage' is an exceedingly broad character, and likely the most versatile archetype.

Other than max out spellcasting, pump up magic, and get a good counterspell skill, there isn't alot of 'common' mage advice.
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Stingray
post Mar 2 2010, 03:40 PM
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..no need for specialized medic..
if person do not have skill, rating of eq. replace it,(no default), and max boxes of damage is rating of eq (6)..(RAW)
person w/first aid Skill: Skill rating + Logic + medical eq. rating. maximum boxes to heal: skill rating
person wo/first aid Skill: Logic + eq. rating. maximum boxes to heal is equal to rating of medical eq.
Hacker/rigger w/high logic+cyberware/bioware (cerebral booster) and high rating medical eq. makes best Medics (RAW)
(pg. 252. SR4A)
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PatB
post Mar 2 2010, 03:44 PM
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First question: hermetic, shamanic, or customized tradition ?? This will flesh out your character a lot, role-playing-wise.

The rest depends of the team and how you see yourself in that team:

- Support type: focus on summoning, counterspelling, astral projection related skills/habilities. Heal, Increase <attribute>.

- First line of attack: Increased Reflexes and buy a Sustaining Focus force 3-4 (usually, 3 is enough and the spell's drain is acceptable), a good indirect combat spell for drones, a good direct spell to resist with Will for the meat people, Armor might be good (note: there's no harm in putting the opposition down through stun).

- Infiltration: Improved Invisibility, Physical Mask, Stealth, Infiltration skill (very useful to bring a mage with the others. We play that Infiltration can help you avoid astral attention, the same way is does with the physical).

- A little bit of all: if you go Jack-of-all-trade-master-of-none, you might lose yourself and never find your niche. Depending on the size of the team, fill the gaps where you will have fun. Good spells are Levitate, Physical Barrier, Hush (mix this one with Physical Barrier and Demolition, and you have one nasty silent bang)

Skill-wise, just get Pistols and specialize it is SA, get one melee combat skill (either dodge, unarmed, or club for a Stun Baton - the best for a mage). Forget about Enchanting, Arcana, and probably Banishing (this is your first mage, so give yourself a break). Get a skill or two to be able to follow the team (like Infiltration, shadowing, some social especially if you're shamanic). Don't forget Assensing.

Focus ?? I find that 1-2 sustaining foci are better than a Power focus. Keep in mind that you don't have to cast at maximum force, and that spells like Physical Mask and Improved Invisibility need 3 hits to fool the tech. Increase Reflexes at F3 with 3 hits give you the same as Wired Reflexes II.
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Nifft
post Mar 2 2010, 05:02 PM
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My dude is of the Hermetic tradition. He's a Dwarf (Philip "Stones" Flint). High Logic works with our high-rated medkit, so that plus the Heal spell should cover the party, right?

The "support" option looks good, since the party has some good front-line fighter types already. So, summoning, eh? As a Hermetic mage, my summoning options are Air, Earth, Fire, Water and Man. Should he focus on Summoning, and ignore Binding & Dispelling?

With his Spirit Mentor (Fire-Bringer) he gets +2 to Manipulation spells, but -1 to Illusion spells: is that too limiting? If Ignite isn't any good, then he won't have a whole lot of combat uses for Manipulation.



Here are his attributes:

PHYSICAL & MENTAL ATTRIBUTES (180 BP)
Body: 3
Agility: 3
Reaction: 3
Strength: 3
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 5
Willpower: 6

SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES (40 BP)
Edge: 1
Magic: 5

Thanks, -- N
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 05:21 PM
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Banishing is only good for one thing, and that is playing Pokemon with spirits. It is much easier to nail them with a stunbolt, and will give you way less drain if you just want them gone. Binding is good to have at least a little bit in, because it allows you to save a spirit for later, or put multiple spirits into play.

From what I've heard on the boards, I think Man is the most powerful spirit. One of its greatest abilities is that you can give it an innate spell, and it can sustain it on you (And others) and thus acts like a sustaining focus of sorts.

-1 to illusions isn't all that painful, but ignite is fairly limited in usefulness compared to alot of other spells. As I recall it takes several combat turns to light something on fire, and by that point most combat is over.

Be sure to grab increased reflexes so that you can have multiple IPs and keep up with the sammies.
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Stingray
post Mar 2 2010, 05:42 PM
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yeah, that will cover the team's medical needs..
active Armor spell
for GEEK THE MAGE FIRST! situations.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 2 2010, 06:52 PM
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Physical Barrier is a very ubiquitous spell provided you're creative with it. Don't think of it simply as defensive, it can even be used offensively. Car chase? Force a crash check by placing a barrier in front of them. Stuck on a roof? Use it to make a walkway over to another building. In fact, using it defensively as anything more than a time stall seems unreasonable to me. But that's my 2 nuyen worth. I recommend keeping it.

Improved reaction is great unless you want to spend some serious money or serious essence (and magic) on IP boosters. I personally believe rating 1 synaptic boosters are totally worth the 0.5 essence and you can fit some other useful stuff in... cerebral boosters for instance.
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PatB
post Mar 2 2010, 07:12 PM
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Dwarf and Hermetic make a good mix.

I would increase your Edge by 2 points (total 3) - this is your key when things go bad ... and for summoning/binding spirits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif) That'll save ya a LOT of trouble (the mage in my game learned that fast, especially at 2500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per binding test).

If you're going the spirit way, Binding is definitely a skill to invest in. First, the spirits stay until you waste all owned services. Next, they can perform other types of services (nothing better than to ask your Man spirit to sustain that Heal spell). And lastly, this skill will make you save money because you'll end up with more services.

Like it was said in a previous reply, give a combat spell to the spirit of Man and he'll replace you without the need to cast Increased Reflexes, and he'll get the aggro instead of you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

If you're going with Physical Mask and Improved Invisibility, that -1 die from your Mentor Spirit will not affect you that much, so don't worry. If you score badly, use Edge.

For Manipulation Spells, always think outside the box with these spells. Physical Barrier may be heavy on drain, but my mage used it to block an escape route, which led the victims totally surprised (the barrier was not visible from their side). The idea is not always to drop the targets the first time, but make them lose precious combat time. Even a rating 1 barrier needs to be made aware, then forced, and in all cases, it comes back at full structural rating at the start of the next combat turn.

Use Levitate to prevent someone from fleeing ... or to drop him off the edge of a building. Those Mentor Spirit bonuses will definitely be needed in those cases.

Don't forget Counterspelling as you'll become the mage-savior - the rating of that skill is added to your friend's spell resistance check.
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Nifft
post Mar 2 2010, 07:14 PM
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Another thing I've been doing wrong: putting 35 BP in positive qualities after the Magician quality. Damn.

So I originally had, in addition to Magician:
Focused Concentration (2) - 20 BP
Quick Healer - 10 BP
Mentor Spirit - 5 BP

Which should I keep? Focused Concentration (2) would be my instinct, since I don't like taking Drain.
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 2 2010, 07:18 PM
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Hermetic? What tradition? If you use a logic based tradition you can drop MAG a little for rtg 2 cerebral boosters and pick up a rtg 2 power focus for much less cost than the quality offers.
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Nifft
post Mar 2 2010, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Mar 2 2010, 02:18 PM) *
Hermetic? What tradition? If you use a logic based tradition you can drop MAG a little for rtg 2 cerebral boosters and pick up a rtg 2 power focus for much less cost than the quality offers.
Isn't "Hermetic" my whole tradition?

I totally dig the cerebral boosters... is it significantly cheaper to buy those at character creation, or can I snag them later?

For the Power Focus, that is significantly cheaper to buy now.

Bah, I'm going to blow 12 BP on a 6/6 Talismonger just to cover my butt.
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 2 2010, 07:28 PM
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Street Magic further defines traditions from Shamanic/Hermetic.

Very very quickly I wrote up a barebones (no spells, skills, or much gear)

Human (0)
Attributes 190
Bod 3
Agi 3
Rea 3 (4)
Str 2
Cha 3
Int 4
Log 5(7)
Wil 4

Special Attributes (40)
Edge 2
Magic 5(4)
Essence 5.1
IP 2
Initiative 8

Quality (15)
Magician

Bio (20)
Cerebral Booster 2
Synaptic Booster 1

Gear (10)
Power Focus rating 2 (bound) (2)

Total cost - 277 BP - Karma cost - 330
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Nifft
post Mar 2 2010, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 12:21 PM) *
Banishing is only good for one thing, and that is playing Pokemon with spirits. It is much easier to nail them with a stunbolt, and will give you way less drain if you just want them gone. Binding is good to have at least a little bit in, because it allows you to save a spirit for later, or put multiple spirits into play.

From what I've heard on the boards, I think Man is the most powerful spirit. One of its greatest abilities is that you can give it an innate spell, and it can sustain it on you (And others) and thus acts like a sustaining focus of sorts.

-1 to illusions isn't all that painful, but ignite is fairly limited in usefulness compared to alot of other spells. As I recall it takes several combat turns to light something on fire, and by that point most combat is over.

Be sure to grab increased reflexes so that you can have multiple IPs and keep up with the sammies.
Increased Reflexes is a Healing spell, so it's cheap to just buy later, right? Combat and Manipulation spells are Restricted, so buying those at character creation is better?

I'm thinking of taking Summoning 6, Spellcasting (group) 4, no Binding or Banishing -- I'll pick those up later with Karma, if I end up using Spirits for more than sun-to-sun.

For implants, I really like Platelet Factories (bioware, 0.2 essence).
Hmm, looks like after ditching my (illegal) Mentor Spirit and Quick Healer qualities, I have enough ¥ for Cerebral Boosters (2).

After revision, my spell list is:
- Heal
- Stunbolt (Direct)
- Levitate (Physical)
- Influence (Mental)
- Physical Barrier (Environ.)
- Glue (Physical) (sm) -- the possibilities are hilarious.

Thanks, -- N
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Caadium
post Mar 2 2010, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE (Nifft @ Mar 2 2010, 11:54 AM) *
Increased Reflexes is a Healing spell, so it's cheap to just buy later, right? Combat and Manipulation spells are Restricted, so buying those at character creation is better?

I'm thinking of taking Summoning 6, Spellcasting (group) 4, no Binding or Banishing -- I'll pick those up later with Karma, if I end up using Spirits for more than sun-to-sun.

For implants, I really like Platelet Factories (bioware, 0.2 essence).
Hmm, looks like after ditching my (illegal) Mentor Spirit and Quick Healer qualities, I have enough ¥ for Cerebral Boosters (2).

After revision, my spell list is:
- Heal
- Stunbolt (Direct)
- Levitate (Physical)
- Influence (Mental)
- Physical Barrier (Environ.)
- Glue (Physical) (sm) -- the possibilities are hilarious.

Thanks, -- N


Beond the sun-to-sun aspect, you are missing that Binding is how you can use more than 1 spirit at a time. With a Summoning that high, you will likely be relying on them a lot so I'd ponder that.

Another thing to ponder, depending on the character concept, ritual casting might not be that usefull or appropriate. If this is the case, I'd drop the Casting group and instead do:
Summoning 5
Casting 5
Counterspelling 4

and this frees up 8 BP which could be a start towards binding.
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Nifft
post Mar 2 2010, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE (Caadium @ Mar 2 2010, 03:07 PM) *
Beond the sun-to-sun aspect, you are missing that Binding is how you can use more than 1 spirit at a time. With a Summoning that high, you will likely be relying on them a lot so I'd ponder that.

Another thing to ponder, depending on the character concept, ritual casting might not be that usefull or appropriate. If this is the case, I'd drop the Casting group and instead do:
Summoning 5
Casting 5
Counterspelling 4

and this frees up 8 BP which could be a start towards binding.
That might be much better.
I'll look over the Binding rules and post an update later.

Thanks, -- N
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PatB
post Mar 2 2010, 08:24 PM
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QUOTE (Nifft @ Mar 2 2010, 02:54 PM) *
Increased Reflexes is a Healing spell, so it's cheap to just buy later, right? Combat and Manipulation spells are Restricted, so buying those at character creation is better?

Spells are spells. They all cost the same, no matter which school they come from. The formula cost differs, but as a mage, your first worry should be Karma, not cash.


QUOTE (Nifft @ Mar 2 2010, 02:54 PM) *
I'm thinking of taking Summoning 6, Spellcasting (group) 4, no Binding or Banishing -- I'll pick those up later with Karma, if I end up using Spirits for more than sun-to-sun.

Think twice about this one. Summoning 6 will give you lots of drain (DV = twice hits) and you'll be limited to a single spirit, and you'll probably start a run with drain from summoning since you won't have time to recuperate.

Binding allows you to get as many spirits as your CHA, plus the single one you can summon. Binding is usually executed between runs because it takes hours to complete, so you don't have to worry about the drain (unless it fills your Stun bar, but that's another topic). Plus, the spirit resists with twice its force, so a good Binding skill is required.

The mage in my game is usually spending 1-2 Edge points when binding; maybe 1 on summoning to reroll fails and depending on the number of hits, and definitely 1 Edge on Binding to maximize the number of services.

If you're planning to support your group with spirits, you need Binding.

Implants, think of cyber-eyes if you have Essence space; if you're going bioware, these will be half Essence cost. Priority on Low-Light and Thermal. Fill the rest of the capacity as you need. Remember - you need to see the target to be able to target it with a spell, so Visibility modifiers applies when casting.
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 08:37 PM
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QUOTE (PatB @ Mar 2 2010, 03:24 PM) *
Spells are spells. They all cost the same, no matter which school they come from. The formula cost differs, but as a mage, your first worry should be Karma, not cash.



Think twice about this one. Summoning 6 will give you lots of drain (DV = twice hits) and you'll be limited to a single spirit, and you'll probably start a run with drain from summoning since you won't have time to recuperate.

Binding allows you to get as many spirits as your CHA, plus the single one you can summon. Binding is usually executed between runs because it takes hours to complete, so you don't have to worry about the drain (unless it fills your Stun bar, but that's another topic). Plus, the spirit resists with twice its force, so a good Binding skill is required.

The mage in my game is usually spending 1-2 Edge points when binding; maybe 1 on summoning to reroll fails and depending on the number of hits, and definitely 1 Edge on Binding to maximize the number of services.

If you're planning to support your group with spirits, you need Binding.

Implants, think of cyber-eyes if you have Essence space; if you're going bioware, these will be half Essence cost. Priority on Low-Light and Thermal. Fill the rest of the capacity as you need. Remember - you need to see the target to be able to target it with a spell, so Visibility modifiers applies when casting.


Yeah, the karma cost is the same, and the nuyen cost is fairly minimal. As a mage money will generally not be a big concern.

Summoning is only drain = hits, it is binding where drain is 2x hits. I have to agree that binding is going to be a big deal if you want to go for a summoner type character. Keep in mind you don't need a huge binding though. You'll get most of your services in the summoning stage, you just need that one net hit to make the bind stick, anything beyond that is just gravy.

Also, look into trauma dampeners. They reduce the effectiveness of platelet factory slightly, but are more useful as long as you keep in stun drain.

And I second on the cyber-eyes. Only takes a rating 1 or 2 to get low-light vision and thermographic vision, which makes it much easier to target spells in the dark.
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Longshot1650
post Mar 2 2010, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (PatB @ Mar 2 2010, 02:24 PM) *
Think twice about this one. Summoning 6 will give you lots of drain (DV = twice hits) and you'll be limited to a single spirit, and you'll probably start a run with drain from summoning since you won't have time to recuperate.


Actually summoning drain is determined by twice the number of hits the spirit generates in the opposed magic+summoning+others vs spirits force test with a minimum of 2 drain and using the spirit's force for stun/physical differentiation so having a high summoning skill doesn't hurt.

As for the binding skill it does allow for the versatility of having multiple spirits on call and is also used in the invoking metamagic to increase the power of bound spirits.
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PatB
post Mar 2 2010, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (Longshot1650 @ Mar 2 2010, 03:39 PM) *
Actually summoning drain is determined by twice the number of hits the spirit generates in the opposed magic+summoning+others vs spirits force test with a minimum of 2 drain and using the spirit's force for stun/physical differentiation so having a high summoning skill doesn't hurt.

I stand corrected. Thanks a lot.
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (Longshot1650 @ Mar 2 2010, 03:39 PM) *
Actually summoning drain is determined by twice the number of hits the spirit generates in the opposed magic+summoning+others vs spirits force test with a minimum of 2 drain and using the spirit's force for stun/physical differentiation so having a high summoning skill doesn't hurt.

As for the binding skill it does allow for the versatility of having multiple spirits on call and is also used in the invoking metamagic to increase the power of bound spirits.


Oh, right, it is 2x hits, but spirit only gets F dice. Binding is also 2x hits, but spirit gets 2*F dice.
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Nifft
post Mar 3 2010, 04:57 AM
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QUOTE (PatB @ Mar 2 2010, 03:24 PM) *
Spells are spells. They all cost the same, no matter which school they come from. The formula cost differs, but as a mage, your first worry should be Karma, not cash.
Cool.

QUOTE (PatB @ Mar 2 2010, 03:24 PM) *
Think twice about this one. (...) If you're planning to support your group with spirits, you need Binding.
Sold.

It seems like the biggest bang-for-buck spirit summoning comes at 3, 6, 9 and 12 Force. For Spirits of Man -- the Innate Spell guys -- even a Force 3 spirit looks great. Is there a common point where Immunity to Normal Weapons makes them effectively unkillable?

So: Spellcasting 4, Counter-spelling 4, Summoning 4, Binding 4?
Is it more important to have a Binding focus than a Summoning focus?

QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 03:37 PM) *
Yeah, the karma cost is the same, and the nuyen cost is fairly minimal. As a mage money will generally not be a big concern.

Also, look into trauma dampeners. They reduce the effectiveness of platelet factory slightly, but are more useful as long as you keep in stun drain.
Cool. When I have the nyuen for alphaware bio upgrades, those will be high on my shopping list.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 03:37 PM) *
And I second on the cyber-eyes. Only takes a rating 1 or 2 to get low-light vision and thermographic vision, which makes it much easier to target spells in the dark.
I'm a Dwarf. I've already paid for thermographic vision once. Also, I'm not convinced that paying for low-light & thermographic vision with Capacity would be compatible with magic.

Sure, I would have paid for the base eyes with essence, so the base vision is fine, but add-ons paid for with capacity sure don't sound like "Physical cyber- or bio- enhancements paid for with Essence" (SR, p.183). They sound like enhancements paid for with Capacity.

It would be great if I'm wrong about this, because I like delicious cheese, but I can't find anything to justify capacity enhancements being useful for a mage.

Thanks, -- N
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Caadium
post Mar 3 2010, 05:02 AM
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They might go into the capacity of the eyes, but you do pay for the eyes with essence. Thats why the eyes work and not just contacts with low-light.
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Nifft
post Mar 3 2010, 05:09 AM
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QUOTE (Caadium @ Mar 3 2010, 12:02 AM) *
They might go into the capacity of the eyes, but you do pay for the eyes with essence. Thats why the eyes work and not just contacts with low-light.
Right, the base eyes would work fine. We totally agree about that.

What I'm saying is that the enhancements to the eyes don't work at all, since they're not "enhancements paid for with Essence" (SR4A, p.183). The rules I see only allow "enhancements paid for with Essence", and low-light & thermo vision enhancements do come with an Essence cost, so you could pay for them that way.

If you don't pay for them in Essence -- for example, if you pay for them in Capacity -- then nothing in the rules allows you to use them for spellcasting. Nothing I can see, anyway. I'm certainly open to correction if you can cite a rule allowing it.

Thanks, -- N
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RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 05:11 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.