Can you edge a SIN check ? Options

[PatB]

To make a long story short, I got a player with a fake SIN who is being interviewed by Lone Star because he was on the scene of a crime. Of course, Lone Star is going to verify his ID - in other words, SIN rating vs Detection rating. The question didn't pop yet, but I'm betting my player will ask if he can use Edge on that test.

Is this legit or not ??

[Dr.Rockso]

Don't have a book with me but I think it's legal. From what I remember there are few things you can't use edge for. Only one I can think of off hand is using edge on an edge test.

[D2F]

To make a long story short, I got a player with a fake SIN who is being interviewed by Lone Star because he was on the scene of a crime. Of course, Lone Star is going to verify his ID - in other words, SIN rating vs Detection rating. The question didn't pop yet, but I'm betting my player will ask if he can use Edge on that test.

Is this legit or not ??

Since it is a test, yes.

[Evilness45]

No, you can't. This test is made by the fake SIN, not by you. And the rules prevents you from using edge on other "people's" tests.

Well, that's what I think.

[D2F]

No, you can't. This test is made by the fake SIN, not by you. And the rules prevents you from using edge on other "people's" tests.

EDIT: nm what I wrote earlier, I must have been mental. You could actualy interpret the rules your way. Personaly, I would still accept it, if my players asked me.

[Axl]

In my game: yes. [Although I do see Evilness45's point.]

[X-Kalibur]

I'm going to say yes... the character's dumb luck/pluck gets the SIN through by means some glitch in the system. I would only allow it to re-roll failed dice, however.

If the situation is actually dire, I say let them burn an edge to have the test succeed.

[Ascalaphus]

I would rule yes. Edge is a vague amalgamation of your character's luck, determination, Plot Powah ™ and sheer awesomeness. It's meant to get through tight spots like this.

The other place where you can't normally spend Edge - Skillwires - is so special because of that. It really draws a line between the "heroes" with actual skills and the grunts with wires.

(You should probably notice I'm becoming more of a film noir fan every year.)

[Saint Sithney]

I prefer to use the SIN rating as a threshold than run an opposed test. Otherwise, your 4k 12F SIN will eventually get busted by buying candy from a vending machine or walking past a crosswalk.

[iamZebulun]

I prefer to use the SIN rating as a threshold than run an opposed test. Otherwise, your 4k 12F SIN will eventually get busted by buying candy from a vending machine or walking past a crosswalk.

I really like this concept. However, when you have a higher rating SIN, it seems like it would completely eliminate the chance that the SIN will be noticed. Do you add any more dice to the system's detection roll?

[LurkerOutThere]

The two relevant passages from SR4A:

"You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval
roll on an Extended Test)."

and

"A character can only spend Edge points on her own actions; she cannot spend it on
behalf of others (except when engaged in a “teamwork” test, p. 65)."

Personally I feel that yes you could spend it on a fake sin rating as it's on your own behalf. To suggest otherwise opens it up to all sorts of wierd things and get down to a level of pedantics and semantics that I do not feel are appropriate for such an awesome game as shadowrun.

[Dakka Dakka]

I really like this concept. However, when you have a higher rating SIN, it seems like it would completely eliminate the chance that the SIN will be noticed. Do you add any more dice to the system's detection roll?

On the other hand Unwired states that you can use fake SINs to permanently spoof lifestyles, i think rating 3 is enough for middle class. So the vending machine shouldn't be a problem.

[The Jopp]

I believe that when they say that you can only use it on your own test that would be tests that are opposed.

If you have a rating X item and an NPC rolls his dicepool against it then the player cannot use edge – if the player did it would influence the npc’s action and that is a big no-no.

If both sides roll their decepool in SIN Controller VS SIN then the player can use his edge to augment his chances.

Unless it is specifically written that it is forbidden (AKA skillwires) you should be able to use edge as long as it is a dicepool you augment that is yours to roll.

Shooting a gun: Edge
Opposed Roll: Edge
NPC Roll VS Item Rating: No Edge
Character Cast Spell: Edge to augment spell
NPC Roll against Spell Force: No Edge

NPC Roll agianst item rating: Burn Edge to make them succeed or fail (basically hand of God)

[Aerospider]

I'd actually say no on this one. I'm AFB right now and can't remember how the text officially describes Edge, but my interpretation is that it represents resourcefulness rather than luck. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but thematically it makes more sense for me and is a more accurate definition of 'edge'.

My view is the SIN is not a part or extension of the character's being - it is an external entity with arbitrary implications on the character's life. So, when the authorities run a check it is a contest between the interrogator and the work of whoever forged it: the character themselves are not involved and cannot spend Edge. Even if the character forged the ID themselves their involvement has ended long before the check gets run, so although you're checking against their skill it's too late for them to get lucky - either they covered all the right bits or they didn't and the rating dice are there to determine the answer. The point for Edge use was the act of forging the ID, after which the character has no input.

Wilfully augmenting a test that you have no actual control over is too akin to the greater dragon power of twisting fate IMO.

Look at it this way: suppose the authorities check the ID without the character knowing. Does he get to spend Edge on that? No, because that would mean giving away that there was a check at all. So why is the interrogator more likely to be fooled if the character is present?

It's like perception checks that the GM rolls behind the screen. The characters can't spend Edge there, especially because sometimes the roll is a fake (if you're my kind of GM) yet that's a much more suitable application because the character is actually involved in the event.

[The Jopp]

I agree with the statement above except for that a character should be able to burn edge to succeed.

This is very similar to someone who has cast a spell at X force and the success test require 4 successes, the player cannot influence the required successes or the NPC's resistance test - Nor can they burn edge to force the NPC to fail, they can only use edge to influence their own fate. They can on the other hand burn edge for a hand of god with the GM's permission.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

However, when you have a higher rating SIN, it seems like it would completely eliminate the chance that the SIN will be noticed.

Not totally, I've seen the Rating 6 verification system score 6 hits. Of course, even totally is fine: By RC RAW, a rating 6 SIN allows you to live a luxury lifestyle in an AAA enclave.
In those areas, anyone is required to be in Active Mode and your SIN gets checked basically non-stop.

Of course, given the recent crash and resulting corruption of SIN databases, it should always be at least possible to talk your way out of it: "What? Those bureaucrats still didn't fix it? I filed dozens of requests now." Just make sure your fake SINs and Licences predate the crash… and have a sufficient dicepool in Con (Fasttalk).
So while you are not able to spend Edge on the test of the SIN ("A character can only spend Edge points on her own actions; she cannot spend it on behalf of others (except when engaged in a “teamwork” test, p. 65)."), your can (and should) spend it on the test to talk your way out.

[Saint Sithney]

Yeah, with a person, a SIN is just a tool in a con. +2 for supporting documentation. Problem is with machines.

As to the threshold idea, it does allow for multiple tests. So, the first time the cop runs your R4 ID on his R4 system, it comes back clean 1295/1296 times. However, if he still doesn't believe you, (because you failed a con, or came close enough to leave his suspicions intact,) then he can run it again and now you're starting to get dangerously close to getting nabbed, killed or, at the very minimum, having every single nuyen in that SIN linked bank account liquidated.

[Dakka Dakka]

How high do you suppose ratings for SIN Scanners go? Even with rating 6 the chance is pretty good the rating 4 SIN will hold.

[Aerospider]

Yeah, with a person, a SIN is just a tool in a con. +2 for supporting documentation. Problem is with machines.

As to the threshold idea, it does allow for multiple tests. So, the first time the cop runs your R4 ID on his R4 system, it comes back clean 1295/1296 times ...

Glitched your Mathematics check I think: threshold 4 with 4 dice fails 80/81 times (1 - 1/3^4 rather than 1 - 1/6^4)

... However, if he still doesn't believe you, (because you failed a con, or came close enough to leave his suspicions intact,) then he can run it again and now you're starting to get dangerously close to getting nabbed, killed or, at the very minimum, having every single nuyen in that SIN linked bank account liquidated.

Running another check would impose a -2 modifier for a second attempt (unless a significant period of time has elapsed) and therefore fail automatically.

[Aerospider]

How high do you suppose ratings for SIN Scanners go? Even with rating 6 the chance is pretty good the rating 4 SIN will hold.

True.
In an opposed test the scanner wins 54% of the time, draws 24% of the time and loses 22% of the time.
In the proposed threshold test rule, the scanner wins 10% of the time and loses otherwise.

This is where the threshold idea breaks down. Rating 6 should be considered top of the line (commercially at least - military and intelligence forces may have higher-rated scanners) and a prized piece of tech for whoever's lucky enough to get there hands on one, so for a rating 4 to stand up 90% of the time is all wrong, but suddenly the probabilities for RAW look more workable.

Then again, with the encryption rules being what they are the criminal is way ahead of the target so there's no reason ID scanners can't be similarly behind on the tech-curve I suppose.

[Muspellsheimr]

No, you can't. This test is made by the fake SIN, not by you. And the rules prevents you from using edge on other "people's" tests.

Incorrect.

Whenever a character uses her fake identity to pass an ID check
(whether for buying a dress or crossing a border), she must make an
Opposed Test pitting her fake ID’s rating against the rating of the
verification system.

Rules as Written, yes, Edge can be used on SIN checks. Anything else is very much and very clearly a House Rule.

[Muspellsheimr]

Rating 6 should be considered top of the line (commercially at least - military and intelligence forces may have higher-rated scanners) and a prized piece of tech for whoever's lucky enough to get there hands on one,

False. Rating 5 is described as military grade equipment. Rating 6 is "cutting-edge".

p.260 Using a Forged ID
Change the paragraph to:
“Whenever a character uses her fake identity to pass an ID check (whether for buying a dress or crossing a border), the verification system makes a test using twice its rating against a Threshold equal to the fake SINs rating. Verification systems are considered to automatically succeed against fake SINs of one-half their rating or less, and automatically fail against SINs of twice their rating or more.”

[Aerospider]

Rules as Written, yes, Edge can be used on SIN checks.

Only the ones you know of. It's weird how Lady Luck only sees what you see ...

[Saint Sithney]

Running another check would impose a -2 modifier for a second attempt (unless a significant period of time has elapsed) and therefore fail automatically.

Meh. It's just a Data Search. Give it a 5 minute interval as an extended test. Cops detain you for five minutes while they run it up the chain. That or the holes in your story become apparent with time, so they do a deep check just in case once you've gone. In five minutes that rating 6 system would like as not invalidate a fake identity which a Forger made with a (128) 1 week test. That is a threshold of 128 hits. That would give someone with the max 20 dice in Forgery nearly a 50% chance of creating that R4 SIN over the course of near 5 continual months of work. So, five months of work flushed in 5 minutes. I don't think that's underpowered for cutting-edge security.

[Aerospider]

p.260 Using a Forged ID
Change the paragraph to:
“Whenever a character uses her fake identity to pass an ID check (whether for buying a dress or crossing a border), the verification system makes a test using twice its rating against a Threshold equal to the fake SINs rating. Verification systems are considered to automatically succeed against fake SINs of one-half their rating or less, and automatically fail against SINs of twice their rating or more.”

Damn, Mu, you do come up with some good house rules.