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> Cybereyes for a Mage, Let's Fight About Them
Nifft
post Mar 3 2010, 05:23 PM
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It seems to be a popular opinion that mages can do great things with cyber eyes. The only thing in the rules that allows cyber-eyes to be used at all is p.183 ("Physical cyber- or bio- enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets"). At least, this is the only thing I can find. If you know of a better rule, please tell me!

- - -

The argument for using cyber-enhancements seems to be:
1/ Base cybereyes have Capacity; and
2/ You paid for your base cybereyes with Essence; therefore
3/ Anything you stick in the base cybereyes -- whether you pay Essence or Capacity -- is fair game.

This is used to justify thermographic & low-light vision enhancements, which might be fine, but it seems that this argument works just as well for commlinks and ocular drones -- and that can't be right.

- - -

A simpler line of reasoning takes the rule on p.183 at face value. The test for a mage being allowed to use a cyber- or bio-enhancement for targeting would simply be:
- Is it an enhancement to your senses?
and
- Did you pay for it with Essence?

For the base cybereyes, it's obvious:
- Enhancement? [✓]
- Paid Essence? [✓]

For vision enhancements, it's equally obvious:
- Enhancement? [✓]
- Paid Essence? [ ... ]

You can pay Essence for thermographic & low-light vision, so you could pay for those separately, and use your excess Capacity for things that don't involve magic -- like flare compensation, smartlink, retinal duplication, etc. -- which would allow you to use your thermo + low-light for targeting magic. Just like if you'd kept your real eyes, and paid for those two enhancements with Essence.

Note that my interpretation does NOT allow magical targeting through ocular drones -- they can't be paid for with Essence, only Capacity.

Does yours? If so, is that desirable?

Cheers, -- N
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D2F
post Mar 3 2010, 05:32 PM
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The key word here is enhancement. The occular drone is not an enhancement. It is a drone ad as such a remote operated vehicle.
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LurkerOutThere
post Mar 3 2010, 05:43 PM
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Even cyber eyes your still limited to what is in your theoretical line of site i.e you draw a line between you and your target unobstructed through other objects. Magic doesn't care about the fact that your vision is enhanced as long as the enhancement is provided by you yourself through some manner including implanted capabilities. Personally I don't differentiate between site paid for with essence and site paid for with capacity.
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Nifft
post Mar 3 2010, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (D2F @ Mar 3 2010, 12:32 PM) *
The key word here is enhancement. The occular drone is not an enhancement. It is a drone ad as such a remote operated vehicle.
There are two key criteria: one is "enhancement", and the other is "paid for with Essence".

If we must read one strictly, how do you justify not reading the other strictly?
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D2F
post Mar 3 2010, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (Nifft @ Mar 3 2010, 06:46 PM) *
There are two key criteria: one is "enhancement", and the other is "paid for with Essence".

If we must read one strictly, how do you justify not reading the other strictly?


I assume "paid for with essence" as the baseline. Otherwise the argument wouldn't be about cybereyes, would it?
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Nifft
post Mar 3 2010, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (D2F @ Mar 3 2010, 12:57 PM) *
I assume "paid for with essence" as the baseline. Otherwise the argument wouldn't be about cybereyes, would it?
Cybereyes are always paid for with Essence. You can't buy them with Capacity. Therefore, the baseline cybereyes always work fine. (That's just the base cybereye units, though. Any enhancements you want to add on top of the baseline are separate.)

I think that answers your question, but if not, please rephrase!

Cheers -- N
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D2F
post Mar 3 2010, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (Nifft @ Mar 3 2010, 07:26 PM) *
Cybereyes are always paid for with Essence. You can't buy them with Capacity. Therefore, the baseline cybereyes always work fine. (That's just the base cybereye units, though. Any enhancements you want to add on top of the baseline are separate.)

I think that answers your question, but if not, please rephrase!

Cheers -- N


It wasn't really a question. It was an answer.
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Karoline
post Mar 3 2010, 06:43 PM
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The real question here is "Does paying for something with capacity count as paying for it with essence?"

If the answer is yes, then thermographic vision in cybereyes works fine for targeting spells. If the answer is no, then you need to get the cyber directly as opposed to as an option for your cybereyes.

Personally I lean towards yes. Capacity is a part of cybereyes, and cybereyes are paid for with essence, thus capacity is paid for with essence and thus anything paid for with capacity is also paid for with essence.
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Nifft
post Mar 3 2010, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE (D2F @ Mar 3 2010, 01:28 PM) *
It wasn't really a question. It was an answer.
I'm assuming that you're disagreeing with me, but your reasoning is ... not available for my perusal.
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Nifft
post Mar 3 2010, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 3 2010, 01:43 PM) *
The real question here is "Does paying for something with capacity count as paying for it with essence?"
Yes, exactly.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 3 2010, 01:43 PM) *
If the answer is yes, then thermographic vision in cybereyes works fine for targeting spells. If the answer is no, then you need to get the cyber directly as opposed to as an option for your cybereyes.

Personally I lean towards yes. Capacity is a part of cybereyes, and cybereyes are paid for with essence, thus capacity is paid for with essence and thus anything paid for with capacity is also paid for with essence.
Well, nothing is stopping you from getting cybereyes and also paying Essence for your visual enhancements. There are plenty of other uses for your Capacity.

It just means that a mage is strictly better off with his natural eyes than with cybereyes, no matter what enhancements he buys.

IMHO that's not a bad result.

Cheers, -- N
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Doc Byte
post Mar 3 2010, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE (Nifft @ Mar 3 2010, 07:26 PM) *
Cybereyes are always paid for with Essence. You can't buy them with Capacity. Therefore, the baseline cybereyes always work fine. (That's just the base cybereye units, though. Any enhancements you want to add on top of the baseline are separate.)


This 'enhancements' are enhancements (= integral parts) of the eyes not of the brain / wetware. And as the eyes are paid with essence, magic works fine with whatever they are upgraded with. Eyes and 'enhancements' are a single unit.
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D2F
post Mar 3 2010, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE (Nifft @ Mar 3 2010, 07:44 PM) *
I'm assuming that you're disagreeing with me, but your reasoning is ... not available for my perusal.


No, I am not disagreeing at at all. I was just specifyin, why occular drones and similar addition to a cybereye, even if paid for with essence wouldn't allow for Spellcastin LOS. You stated the same I did. I merely pointed out that the only relevant aspect in that regard is whether or not it is a vision enhancement.
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 3 2010, 06:51 PM
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They've already lost a point of magic from getting 'ware. Are you really going to nitpick over something this miniscule?
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Karoline
post Mar 3 2010, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Nifft @ Mar 3 2010, 01:47 PM) *
Well, nothing is stopping you from getting cybereyes and also paying Essence for your visual enhancements. There are plenty of other uses for your Capacity.

I never said you couldn't, and there really aren't any other uses for your eye capacity as a mage. Things like eye laser and such aren't really useful for a mage, and by a 'capacity doesn't count' reading, anything put in the cybereye via essence (like vision enhancement) would stop the character casting spells.

QUOTE
It just means that a mage is strictly better off with his natural eyes than with cybereyes, no matter what enhancements he buys.

IMHO that's not a bad result.

Cheers, -- N


Maybe not so bad, but the mage is already losing a point of magic and paying up to .5 essence for the ability to have cybereyes. I don't think it is unreasonable to have the capacity based upgrades to the eyes work just fine. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason to have cybereyes on a mage.
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D2F
post Mar 3 2010, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Mar 3 2010, 07:51 PM) *
They've already lost a point of magic from getting 'ware. Are you really going to nitpick over something this miniscule?


Using a microdrone to cast spells through, isn't something "miniscule"
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Draco18s
post Mar 3 2010, 07:01 PM
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QUOTE (D2F @ Mar 3 2010, 01:49 PM) *
occular drones


Ocular drones can be used to target if and only if they are currently docked in your body. If you get a cybertail and put an ocular drone on the end of it (for whatever reason) you can use it to target spells. The moment you detach the thing and let it roll around its now using a wireless electronic signal to transmit images, which by their very nature, do not transmit the necessary connection to cast spells.
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 3 2010, 07:04 PM
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OH REALLY?!?! (sorry, had to do that)

Capacity : [6]

This enhancement only affects one eyeball per purchase but it installs a small spyball drone in the user’s ocular cavity. The sypball functions as a normal cybereye until the user chooses to remove it and control it.

At which point it is a drone, not a cyber eye. Next?
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Nifft
post Mar 3 2010, 07:15 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 3 2010, 01:56 PM) *
Maybe not so bad, but the mage is already losing a point of magic and paying up to .5 essence for the ability to have cybereyes. I don't think it is unreasonable to have the capacity based upgrades to the eyes work just fine. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason to have cybereyes on a mage.
I'm okay with mages feeling no urge to rip out their natural eyes.

- - -

IMHO it's also fine to have baseline cybereyes function -- just the baseline units, not the Capacity enhancements -- because otherwise, blinding a mage would destroy the character utterly. Under my reading, the blinded mage is worse off than he otherwise would have been, but he's still usable.

Cheers, -- N
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 3 2010, 07:20 PM
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If you absolutely have to make it idiot-proof... don't worry, we'll make better idiots.

If it costs only capacity = no cans cast with

If it costs capacity OR essence = cans cast with (no matter the payment method)

(spelling was intentional)
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Socinus
post Mar 3 2010, 07:35 PM
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I think if you're going after different vision modes, it'd be better to use Contact Lenses or Glasses augmented with the requisite vision modes rather than ding an entire point off your Magic score.

That said, I will sometimes create a character that burns one point of Magic and try to get the most cyberware in that one point as I can.
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Delarn
post Mar 3 2010, 07:36 PM
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I've seen pictures of mages in shadowrun that uses binocular to augment the LOS ! so in my mind you can do the same with cybereyes !
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Kraegor
post Mar 3 2010, 07:44 PM
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It is my opinion, any battle mage that needs to be more than 20 yards from his party, isn't a good battle mage at all.

Whats the purpose of running a game if you can't be by your team? Why are you 500 yards away on the top of that building?

If you wanna do that, just get a sniper rifle with a telescopic scope.
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Caadium
post Mar 3 2010, 07:49 PM
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Nifft, one thing to consider is the history of cybereyes and capacity in Shadowrun. In the previous 3 editions, cyber eyes cost 0.2 essence and there was no such thing as capacity. Each of the enhancements had varying essence costs as well. However, when you bought the eyes they could hold 0.5 essence worthof enhancements for free. In other words it all cost essence, but having a full eye replacement gave you a cushion to add a tiny bit more. Then, in the SR3 advanced cyber book (Man & Machine), they began giving capacity to limbs and such to detail what could go where and how much room it took up. When they moved to SR 4 they redid eyes using this same model, something I see as progress. However, historically cyber eyes with eye mods did count as they were all paid for with essence. I believe that the 2nd edition Combat Mage templage had cyber eyes with enhancements for this very reason.

Furthermore, remember that although the enhancements are their own entities, you buy the eyes at the same time as the enhancements in them. If you wish to get other enhancements you must have the eyes you've got removed and replace the whole set. You can't just pop out the eye you have and add in Flare Comp because some jackass blinded you last run. Eyes are small and you order a specific eye with the modifications you want therefore, the enhancements are part of the eye that you pay essence for. I am of the opinion that the they are part of the eye, therefore part of the essence cost, therefore they work.

If you wanted to gripe about eyes being too useful (a fair argument as I will readily admit that they are often on of my staple pieces of ware if I augment a character), then thats something different. I suppose it would be fair to say that eyes, and even ears, should work like the glasses/contacts/goggles do in SR4A; where the availabilty adds up for the entire unit. This could limit people from starting with the typicla Eyes rating 4 with all the main whistles and bells.
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Caadium
post Mar 3 2010, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (Delarn @ Mar 3 2010, 11:36 AM) *
I've seen pictures of mages in shadowrun that uses binocular to augment the LOS ! so in my mind you can do the same with cybereyes !


This is why previous editions made a distinction between digital and optical magnification for eye enhancements. It was spelled out in the books that for mages, digital would not work, but optical would.
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Nifft
post Mar 3 2010, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (Delarn @ Mar 3 2010, 02:36 PM) *
I've seen pictures of mages in shadowrun that uses binocular to augment the LOS ! so in my mind you can do the same with cybereyes !
Binoculars can be optical, of course.

QUOTE (Kraegor @ Mar 3 2010, 02:44 PM) *
It is my opinion, any battle mage that needs to be more than 20 yards from his party, isn't a good battle mage at all.

Whats the purpose of running a game if you can't be by your team? Why are you 500 yards away on the top of that building?

If you wanna do that, just get a sniper rifle with a telescopic scope.
A fine opinion.

Could you relate that to the "cybereyes" issue?

Thanks, -- N
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