Licenses, How much is too much? Options

[Tsithlis]

I have noticed that a lot of items that the normal shadowrunner uses is restricted or forbidden. I am running the Denver missions and my crew has crossed boarders twice now. My question is for all the stuff that is restricted do they need a separate license for each or can they buy say a security license that covers most items that a private security outfit would use? Also when you are scanned if you have to buy a separate license for everything do they scan each license causing the players to have to roll like 10-12 license checks or is it one scan on their fake SIN?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Licences go by type ("firearms licence") and activity ("concealed carry licence").

Though this is a relatively broad approch, it still will look like this for the advanced runner:
Licences: Melee Weapons, Projectile & Throwing Weapons, Firearms, Weapon Accessories, Ammunition, Grenades, Armor, Software, Sensors, Security Devices, Chemtech, Vehicles & Drones, Cyberware, Bioware, Nanotech, Concealed Carry, Security Service, Pilot Aircraft, Pilot Ground Craft, Pilot Watercraft

[Tsithlis]

that seems reasonable but what about license scanning would you roll for each license vs the scanner or roll only once?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Since I'm using a house rule that a check is not an opposed test, but a success test with the verification system rating dice against the fake rating aas a threshold, I'm lucky to not roll ofthen enough: if the threshold is higher than the dice pool, the check automatically fails.

Of course, if that is not the case, it's a good idea to simply prohibit using different ratings for SIN and Licence and roll only once.

[Aerospider]

I would think the one scan on their SIN should be enough. They'll check things against the associated licences but not the actual veracity of the licences themselves unless they have some reason to suspect something's not quite right.

Example 1
Your ID (4) says you're a registered bodyguard with a firearms licence (1). The border patrol falls for the ID but then has to address the matter of the Predator they found in your arm pit. Oh look, he's got a licence so that's ok.

Example 2
Your ID (4) says you're a registered bodyguard with a firearms licence (1). The border patrol falls for the ID but then has to address the matter of the assault rifle they found in your boot (trunk). Oh look, he's got a licence so that's - no wait a minute, he's a bodyguard. Let's run a check on that licence of his ...

So my advice would be to keep the licences broad (e.g. Firearms, Driving, Biowarfare Agents) and so long as appearances fit the cover story let them go unchecked.

[FriendoftheDork]

Licences go by type ("firearms licence") and activity ("concealed carry licence").

Though this is a relatively broad approch, it still will look like this for the advanced runner:
Licences: Melee Weapons, Projectile & Throwing Weapons, Firearms, Weapon Accessories, Ammunition, Grenades, Armor, Software, Sensors, Security Devices, Chemtech, Vehicles & Drones, Cyberware, Bioware, Nanotech, Concealed Carry, Security Service, Pilot Aircraft, Pilot Ground Craft, Pilot Watercraft

I'm fairly certain licenses are one per weapon, not any generic "firearms" license.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I'm fairly certain licenses are one per weapon, not any generic "firearms" license.

You might want to check SR4A p. 313 & 332:
"For example, you are allowed to purchase and own a gun when you have a firearms license for it. To carry a gun with you, you may need a more specific concealed carry permit." & "Each type of item/activity requires a separate license."

Of course, if you want to run beancounters… go for one licence per item.

[FriendoftheDork]

You might want to check SR4A p. 313 & 332:
"For example, you are allowed to purchase and own a gun when you have a firearms license for it. To carry a gun with you, you may need a more specific concealed carry permit." & "Each type of item/activity requires a separate license."

Of course, if you want to run beancounters… go for one licence per item.

"a firearms license for it." The "it" seems to imply you need a different firearms license per item. Otherwise, why not just write "you are allowed to own any restricted gun if you have a firearms license."

Then again this wouldn't be the first time rules have been ambiguous.

Also, yeah it's a hassle so for my game I just let the supplying NPCs give licenses for all the guns the PCs had (at a certain rating).

But does it really make sense to allow you to buy an assault rifle just because you have a license to own a gun and shoot at a target range? Where I come from licenses are strictly controlled and there are different kinds for different kind of guns (and good luck getting one an automatic weapon.)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The "it" seems to imply you need a different firearms license per item.

Luckily, the other sentence clears that one up: "Each type of item/activity requires a separate license."

[forgarn]

Luckily, the other sentence clears that one up: "Each type of item/activity requires a separate license."

Not really because and item is still falling under the "it" there for you would need a license for the Predator and another one for the Executive.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Yes, really: "type of item" is pretty clear when combined with "firearms licence".

[forgarn]

Yes, really: "type of item" is pretty clear when combined with "firearms licence".

Well, let's see. There is currently no where that I know of that you can get a single firearms license to cover all the firearms you own. If you want a pistol, you need a firearms license for that specific pistol. If you want another pistol, you get another firearms license for the other pistol you want. If you want a rifle, you get a firearms license for that specific rifle. Now there are three "firearms licenses" that I have to have for three weapons. Same "generic" firearms license, but specifying the exact firearm the license covers.

so, Yes, "type of item" is very clear when combined with "firearm license" if "firearms license had changed to cover everything from a streetline special to an assault cannon (all are technically firearms). Firearms is too generic of a term, and logic should dictate that there would be a generic firearms license (same information required for all registrants) that would include the description of the firearm being registered.

[X-Kalibur]

I would say that restricted items can have a blanket liscense cover them (such as most pistols, shotguns, etc) while forbidden items would require a specialized liscense for one. Plus a SIN that matches up with the use.

[Bull]

Generally, I run with only a handful of Licenses needed.

Firearms, Cyberware, Concealed/Carry, Magic, and Drivers. (There's also the standard Hunting, Fishing, Pilots, etc, but those are less frequently needed by Runners (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ). Each license lists what items you registered with it... So for Firearms, my Street Sam has his Predator and his Defiant registered to a single licnse. This means though that he can't change weapons (he loses his Predator and starts carrying a Warhawk) without getting the license adjusted.

Overall, I don't like a lot of book-keeping in my games. And the sheer amount of licenses you could have, especially if you start tagging individual items, it just ridiculous and even at 100¥ per rating would get prohibitively expensive (I'm pretty sure between cyber, bio, and weapons my Missions character would need around 25 seperate licenses if you had to do them individually). I don't mind the licenses, they make a certain amount of sense, but they're a new addition to this edition of the game anyways. We got along fine for 15 years without 'em. No reason to bog the game down now.

In the end, it's your game, do what feels right. If you play a more cinematic game, licenses are unnecessary. If you play a more realistic game, then go nuts. Most people fall in between, so I'd say find a good medium ground.

Bull

[Rotbart van Dain...]

There is currently no where that I know of that you can get a single firearms license to cover all the firearms you own.

There's currently nowhere where you can own a military assault rifle with grenade launcher (M22A2) or a silenced submachinegun (Ingram Smartgun X), either.

Firearms is too generic of a term, and logic should dictate that there would be a generic firearms license (same information required for all registrants) that would include the description of the firearm being registered.

Logic would dicate that nowhere in the whole book there is anything said about registration.

I would say that restricted items can have a blanket liscense cover them (such as most pistols, shotguns, etc) while forbidden items would require a specialized liscense for one.

By RAW, there is no way for a natural person to own a forbidden item legally.

[X-Kalibur]

By RAW I can talk a starving Wendigo down. I don't really think that RAW is the end all be all. Every law has exceptions, its just a matter of finding them, and having enough money...

(also, if you work for a corp (depending on your position) you can very legally own a forbidden item, they are extraterritorial after all)

[Nows7]

Let's see, I'm running with a "Spell casting license" and a "Private Security" license on two SINS with my Rating 6 SIN has both of those plus "Talismongering license"

The street Sammie is running with "Firearms" and "Personal Security". For our game that covers Single hand firearms, and basic body armors.

By RAW I can talk a starving Wendigo down. I don't really think that RAW is the end all be all. Every law has exceptions, its just a matter of finding them, and having enough money...

(also, if you work for a corp (depending on your position) you can very legally own a forbidden item, they are extraterritorial after all)

The Aztech Striker missile launcher is legal while you're on azzie soil, but when you step out to UCAS soil, their may be hell to pay.

[FriendoftheDork]

There's currently nowhere where you can own a military assault rifle with grenade launcher (M22A2) or a silenced submachinegun (Ingram Smartgun X), either.

Logic would dicate that nowhere in the whole book there is anything said about registration.

By RAW, there is no way for a natural person to own a forbidden item legally.

I'm pretty sure you can own a "military" assault rifle in say Iraq today (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Submachineguns are allowed in several jurisdiction, also in the western world. Sound Supressors generally are not, but probably will be. In any case it's a rules oversight since silencers and supressors have availability F while guns with them does not!

It took me 5 seconds to find a reference to "registration" in the book. Check out the chapter called "What's in a SIN". Also registration of pretty much everything is what causes the "datatrail" to exist. If you buy a snack at the stuffer shack, or an Ares Predator both purchases are registered, and the latter will be checked against an appropriate License (or a fake one).

And yes a private citizen cannot own a Forbidden item in UCAS legislature. A Corporation, a Government agency, the armed forces and police forces can.

[X-Kalibur]

Also, for those arguing you need a liscense for each firearm you own, I disagree citing real world examples.

I live in California, every sidearm I own is registered to my liscense through the DOJ. I do not have a seperate one for each, they are all tied to the same one.

Same for my motorcycle and car, same liscense, different vehicle types, the liscense is just noted that I have class C and M1.

[D2F]

Yes, really: "type of item" is pretty clear when combined with "firearms licence".

The way it is written, each weapon requires its own specific license. The "firearms license" is only mentioned so generically, because the text also only referred to "gun".

The text is very specific when it mentions that each item requires its own license.

[Blog]

[Runner] "Oh i have the proper permit for that weapon right here officer"
*Hands the borderpatrol an envelope that cotains $500
[Officer] "Enjoy your stay, move along sir"

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The text is very specific when it mentions that each item requires its own license.

The text is very specific, but the other way round: "type of item" != "item". It simply doesn't say what you claim it does.

[Khyron]

I don't agree with RAW necessarily, but it does appear that you do need one license per weapon, which is shown in their character concepts in the 20A book. Best example, Street Sami on 110. 5 Licenses, 5 weapons. Also Forbidden items can't be licensed, they're just no.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It#s not like the archetype haven't been contradicting RAW before – or NPCs for that matter. One should note the omission of the "concealed carry" licence, too, for that matter – so that street sam won't be able to actually carry them.

By actual RAW, it's "type of item", not "item".

[SpellBinder]

Yes, but said Street Sam has two licenses for two identical Predators, and is also missing licenses for strength enhancers in the cyberlimbs and a shock hand, which is an additional three to avoid legal trouble. The Weapon Specialist on SR4a, pg 113 would need a whole lot more than just the two licenses listed to avoid legal trouble (Combat Axe, Katana x2, Medium Crossbow, Ares Predator, Yamaha Sakura Fubuki w/ Smartlink, & Stun Baton, just to name some of the Restricted gear; 8 total). This also doesn't consider the above mentioned "Concealed Weapons Permit" for both.

By the logic of every type of item needing a license, it sounds that by RAW you could actually need two just to have most firearms (one for the gun, and one for regular ammo) and not get in trouble for it. Maybe even three if you consider an integral smartlink as a separate piece of restricted gear. Four if you don't want to openly carry that pistol.

Border guard upon examining a runner's firearm along with SIN & licenses check: "Yes, you have a license to own the [insert firearm]. However, you don't have a license for concealed carry, the gel rounds that are loaded in it, or the smartgun link mounted under the barrel. I'm afraid you'll have to pay a fine or turn over the weapon. By the way, do you happen to have a smartlink in in your [insert eyeware]? If so, you don't have a license for that either."