What are the odds... gm factor vs reality (long), thoughts and help please Options

[The White Dwarf]

(note: yea this is all sorta relative to just our games, but like Im pretty sure our games are similar to yours on a lot of levels, so try to keep that in mind)

Quote:
It's not a big deal at all unless your GM is trying to screw with you

I saw that in another thread. And its something I myself have said over and over again. And for something like 90% of anything people say is a problem regarding rules and character power, there is no problem unless... the gm is trying to screw you. This results in there being 4 kinds of entities in SR, and the fact that no matter what I think up I cant break this mold really takes some of the fun away, because the game becomes predictable.

1) Pedestrian people. Wage mages, cops, gangers, whatever. This is the low level stuff your hardened runner scoffs at. Even if you walk towards several of them without cover youre likley to soak everything fine and then lay waste to them with your SL-2 firearm, or Force 5 Manaball, or whatever. Really, unless the GM is trying to screw with you, theres no way theyre really a threat.

2) Secrity people. This is the stuff like camers, guards, whatever that is typically the obstacle of a run. Like take a camera, its not a threat as it cant kill you, it just might blow your run. So you sit down and come up with a plan to get around it, and problem solved, run completed, the pencil numbers on your character sheet get erased and raised. Yawn.

3) Dangerous people. This is stuff like the Tir Ghost hit squad, or a well-reputed opposing runner team. Theyre dangerous, youll want cover and surprise to really get some kinda edge on them. And they probably can and will wound you before its over. Its not the kind of thing you can charge, but it is the sort of thing you can beat with some good playing. Plus, they might have something better than an Ares Predator to loot. Score, loot!

4) Power players. Dragons, immortal elves, megacorporation HQs, missile silos, etc. Really, if it was designed like it would be in RL, it would be next to impossible for Joe Runner to make a successful crack at these things. Seriously. Theres just no way you could work your way past all that security without another power player giving you some info. Sure, if Dunkie says "hey guys, slip into Lof's lair, I scored you the schematics so just follow the yellow line" you can do it... but really if some Johnson said "I need to hire you to break into Lof's lair, youre on your own to do it" the runners would fail, assuming you were playing it realistic. Enter the meta-plot.

So whats the point of all this? Well, really, the point is that if the game is played realistically (which we always try to do) it really *does* turn into a game of one-ups-man-ship between the runners and security just like the one that drives RL markets. Runner buys scanner, security buys encryption, runner buys decryption, etc etc... until in the end either you succed, or you dont, because the GM decides on the opposition's stuff.

Like example: ganger vs runner
Ganger, pistols 4, heavy pistol 9M, armor jacket 5/3, body 4
Runner, pistols 6, SL-2 heavy pistol 9M, armor jacket and form fitting 7/3, body 8

Ganger shoots at tn 4, gets 2 successes. Runner resists against tn 2, soaks. Runner shoots at tn 2, gets 5 succeses. Ganger resists against tn 4, gets 2 successes, takes a serious. Rinse, repeat.

The point of the above example is that average (well built) runner is invincible against average ganger. Unless, of course, the GM trys to screw you by making the ganger pistols 6, or giving him AV rounds, or whatever. And as many people would argue, yea it could happen, but really, odds are *way* in your favor that it wont. So its predictable. Gangers are a non-threat.

So whats the *REAL* point of all this? That if you follow the canon rules, and try to adhere to a realistic game, there becomes a sort of breakpoint of runner > stuff or stuff > runner. Runner > Ganger, but Dragon > Runner. Theres no need to even really play because many of the encounters are forgone conclusions, like some sorta twisted paper rock siccors game.

So please, thoughts? Help? Is there anything I can do to break the cycle? The game isnt really dangerous or a challenge anymore, unless the players intentionally gimp their characters, or the GM intentionally makes everything dangerous. And please, dont use specific examples as it will just become a counter-example thread and thats not the point-- Im trying to find some kinda new outlook on the game that may help break the monotony. Theories, ideas, that sorta thing. Thanks.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[The White Dwarf]

Quote:
:if you follow the canon rules, and try to adhere to a realistic game :
These two contradict. The canon rules are not realistic.

Ok, this is a really good point. Thats something to think about for me at least, as to why things are the way they are.

As to random factors vs GM screwing you over, guess it all depends. Like in the past 5 years I can think of twice my car hasnt started. The odds of it landing on something like "as the runners make a getaway" when 2 out of the what, 5000 times I probably started my car over 5 years, are really slim. Random yea, but if its random at the critical moment it can really seem like the GM. Especially when youd probably do something like check your stuff out before hand. But given, it all depends on the situation at the time etc.

As to the example, yea I know how you feel, its not a good example. But like to further it, if you simply swap out the heavy pistol for a gas-vent 4 franchi spas, it gets a lot more dangerous. Then it would be runner > pistol, auto-fire shotgun > runner. The idea I was trying to get across is that rarely is there anything external really involved here, it really boils down at the core to the base numbers youre dealing with, and because of that youre either > or < the opposition. Only on the equal fights (category 3) do external factors come into play, but thats the exact same category that the GM has a lotta leeway with. Perhaps the examples really mean we should shift our games to areas where the GM realistically has leeway... I mean you just wont see skill 8 gangers running around, theyd be picked up for shadow-work or the mobs or something.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[durthang]

Something else to take into account is your description of a “well built runner”. In my current game I am playing a B&E specialist who I consider to be well built. She can get by most mundane, non-matrix security with a little intel and some planning. On the other hand, with a body of 5 and never wearing armour heavier than 4 suddenly makes that skill 4, heavy pistol carrying ganger look a lot more threatening.

Assuming (dangerous, I know) that you are having the same problem with your deckers, riggers, and non-combat situations, I have to wonder what your average run looks like. In the games I’ve played, the biggest threat is the unknown. Even after all of our leg-work is done, we still don’t know what’s waiting around every corner. It only takes one surprise to make a run go from “smooth sailing” to “screwed”. This way it is more than just a game of Yatzee.

Please excuse the example, but I think that it does a good job in demonstrating my point. In the last run we completed, our team was sent out on a typical “steal the prototype” run. The run itself went surprisingly easy. We got it, got the goods, and got out with minimal trouble.

We contacted the J and set up the meet. The J sent us to an abandoned hanger. While we were waiting inside, we heard a car pull up and then another. Before any of us could check outside, we heard shouting and gunfire. After an intense firefight (a large group of gangers and a few, well equipped Yaks) we were left with the prototype, some dead or KOed thugs, and our J in serious (read: deadly damage) condition.

Sure, we won all the number rolling without too much trouble, but we’re still screwed. Not only do we not get paid if the J dies, but we also risk his employer (in this case, Ares) blaming us for his death if we don’t do some quick thinking.

[toturi]

[Sphynx]

Ever play 7 Seas? Great RPG of Swashbuckling and high-adventure. Taught me alot about roleplaying, despite the fact that the game actually sucked from a games-mechanic point of view, and from a variety-like point of view.

The only threat you had in the game was the ones ID'd as a threat. If you were being attacked by a 'mob' of guards, etc, every success you rolled dispatched one of the mob. People could look like Zorro in the game and take out 4 to 8 guards at a time, they weren't the source of the story. Once he got to the Governor (or any other major NPC) suddenly those attacks were doing 1 point of damage per success instead of dispatching (dispatching wasn't killing, just taking out of the picture).

Now, I'm NOT recommending you make the guards panzies in your game, but there is a lesson to be learned here. Too often a GM comes with an awesome story in-mind and it gets to the point that that story just never happens because he lets so much get in the way. Cop stopping you on the street shouldn't become the adventure of the night, even if the player does act stupid, shoot the cop, etc. The story is already planned and the cop is just a small bump that can be passed with a social challenge. Player shoots the cop, cop falls dead, then the GM can later (once this storyline os over) create a storyline where the player is hunted by a LoneStar special Force, his contacts dry up, his lifestyles are compromised, etc. But not that night.

Unless the GM is actually planning on making a storyline from a cop-stop (a good way to start a new story) then any major stoppage of the player due to his 'sustained spells' is GM trying to use RP to convince a player to play the GM's way. GM's shouldn't do that IMHO, the GM should be encouraging the player to have fun, and if his definition of fun is twinking out on Quickened spells, so be it. So, by definition, the GM is trying to screw the player (by my definition of screw) because he's not playing his character the way the GM would play his character.

Sorry, I pass maybe 3 cops a day when I'm hanging outside, I see them more than 3 times, but it's usually the same patrol just working his beat. I bet I see 1 non-beat cop a week, and that totals 4 different cops a week, 55 cops a year, etc, etc. The 1 in 100 (going VERY low on the magic active ratio here) might happen once a year. maybe.... and I'm not of the opinion that the magic ones are the beat cops walking the beat. Those that are on the street are in too much of a hurry to a HTR, or are busily investigating (looking for an Aura match astrally) to stop you or have you stopped for sustaining a possibly legal set of spells.

Anyhows, sorry for rambling.
Sphynx

[Austere Emancipa...]

If that is indeed what WD is saying, then I don't see a problem. Most challenges would be in the Do-able - Evenly matched sector, as long as the GM does his job well.

[toturi]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Reaver]

First off, the GM is SUPPOSED to screw with you. That's his job. The game should be potentially tough, yet fun. Granted the GM should not be making the gaming session a "them vs. me" scenario. There have been a few times my players have planned just right and gotten the job done with little fuss. It's going to happen. Then there are also going to be times where a little rain must fall.

If every run was easy and there was nothing to do but sneak in and sneak out... where would the fun be in that? Random factors shake things up and require the players to think on thier feet. Such opportunities give the players a chance for extra karma in the Smarts category. Such random elements transform the run from boring to exciting. Exciting = fun.

The 7 Seas example is a very good idea and I've used it in my game. I've thrown a gang attack in as a random element, a go-gang deciding to dish out a random act of violence. The players can easily dispatch such a random element because it isn't integral to the game. The gangers don't have to be a serious threat. They're involvement into the game is purely random and meant to provide harrasment and increase the gritty, dark feeling SR should have.

Frankly, random elements rock. The GM should be shaking it up. He just shouldn't shake too hard. ;)

[TheOneRonin]

Well, for starters I think that the dice system alone has a significant degree of randomness built into to, so not every encounter is a foregone conclusion. Secondly, adding a modicum of intelligence to the opponents in a combat encounter can make a world of difference. If you have a group of gangers carrying pistols and SMGs, chances are they've probably been shot at before, and at least know the value of taking cover. That alone makes them more difficult to dispatch. In my games, my players routinely treat ALL armed opponents as serious threats and deal with them accordingly. All it takes is a punk with a shotgun and a lucky dice roll to ruin your day.

Again, to reiterate what others have said, don't just have the opposition stand there out in the open in the middle of the day and shoot. IRL, it just plain doesn't work like that. Honestly, I can't remember the last time ANY of my players was able to take a shot with a firearm with at TN of 4, much less 2, and I'm talking about the gunbunnies here.

Shadowrun has some serious lethality built into it, as long as you take the right approach as a GM and balance things with a little logic. Your players should respect/fear armed opposition, not casually dismiss them, even if they are gangers or typical sec-goons.

[Jpwoo]

Sounds like you are suffering from a little burnout White Dwarf, you should take a month and not play. or find another game to play for a while. This works wonders.

something else that might also help is taking a step back and thinking about why you play the game. From what you described the world your characters live in can be (over)simplified into "See objective, defeat objective, see tougher objective, defeat tougher objective" We have videogames for that.

Take just a couple of minets to think about what kind of things you like in a game, and what they boil down to.

Most of my games fall under, "Friends sticking together against insurmountable odds." The world should feel hostile, but the players are defiant. I guess this is the punk rock part of cyberpunk coming through.

Just a few other core ideas that I have seen or run. "Trust Noone, everyone is out to get you" "Sometimes to accomplish a greater good you need to perform bad deeds" "the world of the jet set criminal is fun, sexy and dangerous" etc etc..

don't state this explicity to the players, but let some kind of philosophy run though all your games.

I will let the other people continue their fine job of dismantling the flaws of the pedestrian<thug<trained thug<shadworunner<demigod chain.

[Reaver]

[spotlite]

I agree with Jpwoo. Our theme is 'everyone's favorite action movie' but with the suffix 'and directed by a briton' so that the good guys winning is not a foregone conclusion!

But in the other campaign we're playing, its more of a 'everyone's favorite road trip crime movie' as its a smuggler campaign and has a much more liberated and high powered feel to it.

If you look at anything long enough you see patterns emerging. I still can't watch Red Dwarf series 4 because I worked out the formula the writers were using by accident and it frustrated me. Shadowrun can be broken down to 'meet johnson, get job, do legwork, do job, get paid or screwed over, get karma, buy stuff, meet johnson' if you want, but if that's what it feels like then it's up to you and your GM to break the mold.

Try switching campaigns. Stick to the SR universe, but try a police campaign, or a smuggler campaign, or especially a pirate campaign (yarrr! Oi've got nuthin' against ye, matey, Oi just heard there's gold in yer belly! Yarrr), or even just a different locale. A ganger campaign can be very in depth indeed, as you struggle to fend off other gangs, expand your turf, get work and break in to the big leagues or just enough to get your momma into a good nursing home...

Or just give it a break for a while. Play a different game. Something completely different, like AD&D, or something completely off the wall, like Ninja Burger or Paranoia. Refresh your love of gaming generally, and then come back to SR which will be waiting for you with open razorblades...

[sable twilight]

[Reaver]

[The White Dwarf]

Guys, first off, lemme say I *REALLY* appriciate the responses. To answer a few questions and thoughts:

Everyone in our group is familiar enough with the SR system that its rare for anyone to make a character that isnt rather above par at what they do. Even the mage or decker, characters with usually lower body, arent stupid. Theyll often take things like Dermal Sheath Level One for the body, armor, and because it cancels flechette ammo, for not much cash or essence. Non-standard for some, but we do it. It means that even the non-combat folks have capable skills there, and are often over-matched against their field. Our current B&E character has skills of 6, aptitude electronics, and microscopic vision mag. With a tn mod of -1 to electronics tests, and -2 to electronics b/r tests, its not really hard to crack anything but the really tough systems. And with the Perceptive edge, and some complimentary security skills, its also pretty easy to spot what they need to disarm.

Which puts you back in the boat that you can probably cake-walk past anything normal, until the GM whips out that superfortress and says "have a day". So when I say "well built" I mean well built. Its not just that youve got > and < categories, its than theyre very broad and the edge is a clean cut one. Runner is invincible to gangers, runner dies horribly to dragons. Because of this, and the fact that most of the time the runners know, or can ID as the fight starts, what category of opposition it is, combat becomes a forgone conclusion, and thus not exciting. If you get attacked by heavy pistols, take cover, return fire, chance of death extremly low. If you get attacked by autofire shotguns, new strat, same result, etc. Again, unless the GM decides the one guard youre fighting happens to be the worlds best marksman with skill of 15 and pasts you in one shot...

As mentioned about, Im still thinking on that category with leeway the first reponse caused me to consider, Ill think on that some more. The only problem is the "evenly matched" area is a very, very narrow selection of opposition... I mean sure Tir Ghosts are an even challenge but theyre rare (and should be) making it hard to come up with a lot of runs in this area. Plus, if the Ghosts surprise you, almost one runner is sure to die, because its so dead even. This is sorta what Tortui meant when a lot is in the GMs hands... I mean when both sides are that l33t if you dont know the encounter is coming it can go to one side or the other very fast. /think on

Because I said "no examples please", I just wanted to add for some people regarding "playing it right" that we do use tactics, and so do the bad guys. Rest assured we dont just stand and shoot or something (I just wanted an uncomplicated example). But when the base numbers (runner body skill damage code etc) are superior, statistically they win out against most of the minor stuff without even trying (sometimes on the point of invunerability) which is what takes out the fun of the whole thing. You can only mow through another yak hit squad so many times before you wish it was like the first time when you didnt know what you were doing and it was all dangerous and fun. But no one wants to purposly give themselves body 2 just to make things 'exciting', hence the problem.

As for the non-combat portions of our runs, hmm. We make an effort to find out everything pertinent to the run, but no more. The reasoning is that in the paranoid and dystopian world of SR you could keep discovering new links and conspirators etc and even with all that you would probably never find out that the run was organized by Ghostwalker because he hates the taste of taco bell and the company CEO youre about to hit is in a law suit with taco bell and when he loses he is going to pay them the 10bil nuyen that will get them out of chapter 11. So we dont even really try much past the first layre or two in. We get building plans when possible, figure out where the sec guard patrols are, try to find out the buildings procedures, what sorta cameras and where, all that stuff. Then we get in, do the job, and get out with the plan that seems to be the best. And if while scouting you noticed that all the guards only carry stun batons and heavy pistols or smgs, well it means that you can really shoot your way out if you have to, because of that whole category thing. And guards in mil-spec armor with ex loaded assualt rifles is a bit hard to buy unless its a military type site... so either it fits and you know it or the gm is at work again...

So, yea maybe Im a little burned out, and we are currently doing a DnD run to break it up. Problem is when we started a small SR thing back up again, it still felt like blah. This is helping me work thru some thoughts, so please keep the replies coming.

[Austere Emancipa...]

A few big-money gigs, retirement, start again with a lower power level game. Using BeCKS at 300-350 Karma, for example, makes basic B&E stuff and secguards challenging without going for that extremely bleak street level/ganger campaign stuff.

Or, if you wish, any of the examples of different styles of campaigns will work great.

I have not ran into the kinds of problems you mentioned (not being able to find and keep up the Evenly Matched level) yet, though, so I should probably just shut up now...

[boodah]

[Synner]

As someone who has just seen a group of pretty experienced and specialized characters (4) completely trounced by the Polish equivalent of a gang (6 - and no skills over 4) I can honestly say you evaluation at the beggining of this thread is skewed. It all has to do with the way you set the scene and whether or not the NPCs play their hands intelligently or not. Of course in a stand up one on one fight a ganger has no chance against a runner (as a runner has no chance against a great dragon), that's never the point. In SR, people know and acknowledge that everyday life in the Sixth World is deadly and risky. They don't get into fights for the fun of it, they make sure they stack the deck as much as possible in their favor before getting into difficult situations. This should even the odds in favor of whoever takes the initiative in picking a fight (which might in fact be the runners). Balancing the odds could be as simple as bringing in friends and striking from ambush, to something as complex as calling in favors with connected people or simply running.

Note that in the above scene no shots were fired and the players were packing standard runner gear while the "opposition" was packing little more than shotguns and old rifles (this was a militia after all) and some very powerful searchlights mounted on their truck.

[Req]

My players' team isn't exactly milspec but they're pretty good at what they do (somewhere in the 40-50 karma range I'd guess), and they fear EVERY GUN THEY SEE. I've yet to have a firefight where someone didn't get wounded, sometimes seriously, and while I very rarely see casualties they've come very, very close on quite a few occasions. I concur with those who've said it's all in the situation. Good tactics and planning, accurate intelligence, and communication make all the difference in the world. I'd rather go up against a team in a panzer and know about it in advance than get jumped by a gang of thugs with the element of surprise.

[durthang]

Another thing you may want to consider as you pick SR back up. Your team is obviously among the best on the market. This being the case you’re probably going to be offered higher end jobs against even competition, if for no other reason than your team is one of the few that has a chance of pulling it off. The rules of supply and demand should naturally keep your team running against opposition that is within that fun range.

That and they’ll pay better too ;)

[sable twilight]

You're going to run into similar problems in just about any system you play in. Eventually the players are going to be able to easily recognize the threat level of the opposition and alter their tactics in response. This is really not al that unrealistic, as the character are supposed to be professionals to some degree and should be able to judge what is needed to be done.

If you want to keep them on their toes a little bit then mix things up a little. Send them on a mission to Amazonia or Austrialia. Have them deal with awakened creatures or spirits. Even your "normal opposition" could have some changes done to them. Sure, gangers might be nothings, but what about a group of gangers in who are being "backed" by a free spirit or toxic shaman. Normal security guards a push over? Then what if some one in the corporation got the (not so bright) idea of augmenting their security force with Bug Spirits?

Even magic in general can a monkey wrench in the predictability of things. You can't know how powerful a mage is (or even is said person is a mage) until he or she starts throwing around magic. Even then, you don't know what spells at what forces or what meta magic the person has at his or her fingertips. Or even just a run where the character can't tote out their biggest guns and heaviest body armor. Maybe the Johnson wants discreet guard work for large high society gathering.

A lot of this would mean that the plots would have to be a lot deeper then characters meet Johnson, characters accept run, characters do legwork, characters do run, characters get paid, characters get karma. So what if your players start thinking "rut roh, the GM is up to something." That's a good thing. Maybe you can get them interested in the "greater plot" that way.

It also sounds like there is another issue going on as well. From the sounds of it all the players just create characters maximized for combat and survivability and that not as much individual characterization goes into them. If you do that, then yes, everything is going to be pretty dry pretty quick.

For me, the character is the key. Sure, I can play just about anything, but it is a lot more fun when the character actually has some personality.

For example, I have a Ravan Shaman. Body of 2 and Quickness of 3. She will never get cyberware. She also does not have any attribute or reaction enhancement spells. I did, however, spend a lot of my starting cash on Euro Westwind Turbo (even though she had no drive skill) and a far about of fine and tres chic armor clothing from Cannon Companion. Why? Because it was the character concept I had envisioned. Does this make her less effective on the typical run? Slightly, but she is also a lot more fun to play. It also means I am a little more creative in how I deal with problems.

With your latest reply I'm under the impression that you are not the GM. If that is the case then maybe you should talk to your GM about what is going on, and let her or him know what it is you are wanting out of the game. If you are the GM and those are some examples of what you have going on, then it is time to shake some things up. Don't be afraid of letting the players thinking that the run they are going on some how unusual or there is more to what is going on then you let on. That's what Shadowrun is supposed to be about.

You might also check out Roleplaying Tips Weekly. It has a lot of good ideas and suggestions that can be applied to any game.

[Glyph]

Lots of great replies on this thread. Two little things that I'll add:

1) For the lower-end "cannon fodder", remember that they often have something the runners don't: superior numbers! If a group that is spread out/using tactics outnumbers you three or so to one, then even typical gangers can suddenly become more challenging. You have to allocate dice pools more carefully, take more defensive actions, etc.

2) Remember, the cannon fodder and the tough guys don't come with fraggin' labels! Mix things up by having that cool-looking team of opposing runners fold like soggy pita bread when the fight starts - turns out they're just a bunch of corporate kid posers, who now get to find out how tough the shadows are the hard way. Or maybe the security guards are actually specialists who got called in when the company got a tip that a team of runners was headed their way. They are wearing normal security guard uniforms, but are a lot tougher. Maybe that beat cop is an adept and doesn't even know it. Maybe that fearsome bounty hunter is just a craven, mediocre thug with good PR. Keep 'em guessing!