Paladium tried it, Cyber Punk Got it Dead On, Shadowrun.............. Options

[nemafow]

If the guy is tied up and your placing a pistol to his head, why roll? Sounds more like a roleplay scene than a 'combat' scene, and the golden rule is that dice shouldn't get in the way of roleplaying.

Not going to tell me where the paydata is?
*places pistol to head and pulls the trigger*

I do still understand where you are getting from regarding the rules, just wanted to ramble on.

Move along, nothing to see here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Manunancy]

A slight comment on CP's 'dougle had damage' rule : even if its never clearly precised, I consider thar damage is doubled after the armor. Which means an SP 20 cowl will stop even a .357 (3d6, maxi 18) dead in it's track, even at point blanck. The .44 magnun at 4d6+1 will slip five, doubled to ten, through. Which seems normal for something that's in the same protection range as a milspec armor vest (with the insert plates in). it's a 'robcop like' hard armor afterall.
It's damn though. It's also ugly and obvious and leave your face unarmored (though it could be armored too, but that ranges into the fugly and blatantly obvious category)

[Evilness45]

In shadowrun, a grenade won't kill a healthy person instantly if it detonates in it's mouth.

Houserules might disagree.

[TheOOB]

In shadowrun, a grenade won't kill a healthy person instantly if it detonates in it's mouth.

Houserules might disagree.

Depends how many times t reflects on their teeth.

But seriously, a GM deciding that something happens as a result of the players action isn't breaking the rules, especially when there are no rules. There are rules for combat an attacks, not for executing prisoners.

[Evilness45]

Actually, yes there is a rule for executing prisoners.
Its called doing a called shot (4 damage) while aiming against a helpless opponent.

[Shrike30]

CP2020 actually handled *better* when you ran up the power scale, letting people sling AP ammo, breaking out the serious body armor, and hauling the full-conversion borgs out of the closet. When it was just a bunch of yahoos blasting at each other wearing armored clothing and kevlar bandannas, it was kind of annoying and lethal as hell, but when we started hauling out big guns (and armor to match) it ran pretty smoothly.

The first time one of my augmented players leaned out the back of their REO Meatwagon aerodyne and started sweeping the street with a Helix shotgun (belt fed, 5 barrels, loading AP-flechettes) because he figured "they're over there somewhere," I knew life was getting good. The .50 BMG return fire from the jacked-up gangbanger down the street proved that reconnaisance by fire can do wonders (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[rumanchu]

I am not talking about making aim shots for eyes. I am talking about executing someone.

In any circumstance that this might come up in-game, there shouldn't need to be rules to cover it -- either the players accept it as an inevitable part of the situation, or they rebel against it. I feel no shame in saying that any gaming group that needs a rule to support the situation you are describing (potentially NSFW example) being fatal is one that should give up RPGs as a hobby -- either you accept it as part of the larger story that the group (players and GM) is trying to tell (in which case no rule is necessary), or you don't (and cling to page citations to counteract the apparent narrative flow).

[Blade]

Combat rules are here to deal with what happens in a combat situation, when people fight each other. If someone is asleep and you put a gun against his head, you're not in a combat situation so combat rules don't apply.

Shooting someone in the head at point blank range in a simple action means that in 1.5 second (assuming you only have 1 IP) you manage to align your gun with the target's head and shoot in a combat situation. If the combat rules said "shooting someone at point blank range in the head automatically leads to weapon's base DV+4 damage (for example)" then you'd have melee characters carry guns because they are sure to hit and deal a lot of damage.

And you won't need to use house-rules to state that a shot to the head kill the victim instantly, you just have to apply that rule that says that the GM should feel free to adapt the rules according to the situation. It's a rule just as valid as the rule that states that a hit is scored on 5+.

[Aerospider]

WRT the called shot rules, they're for when you're making a specific shot in a moving combat scenario (i.e. a moving head at a distance) so for crunching the numbers in a restrained-victim scenario the shooter should get his maximum DV bonus without any DP penalty since he doesn't have to achieve the same kind of accuracy nor would he find it easier to step back and aim generally at the seated target (if anything he'd be more likely to miss that way).

WRT not doing enough damage to be lethal, use the heavy damage rules in Augmentation. Any single wound causing 7 or more boxes of damage means something has been blown seriously out of whack. With a point blank shot to the head the most appropriate choices are severe brain damage and bleeding out, either of which is as good as dead and even adds a bit more flavour as the poor slot gurgles and oozes in front of you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

I thought, but could be wrong, that there is mitigating text in the book that at least hints at (if not outright states) that things like executing a restrained individual with a shot to the head shouldn't be rolled for and that's how I play it unless there is a seriously good reason why that wouldn't be a realistic representation. After all, RPG rules are only there to give a story-telling game an integral frame of reference - if you want to live and die by the rules alone and don't much care for the story-telling bits inbetween then what you're actually playing is a very complicated board game.

[last_of_the_grea...]

Of course all of this goes out the window if the target is a human with an Edge score of 8. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[The Monk]

to the OP. Tell me if I'm wrong, what you are saying is that a good rule for executing someone is one that insures that the act is lethal and the rules are not overly complicating.

However, if the GM rules that someone that's defenseless is outright ded if you put a bullet in his brain, it isn't good enough.

Question, are you really looking for a rule that says "if you execute someone, that person is dead"?

[hobgoblin]

i guess he is looking for a deterministic way to say, "this is a execution. target is dead. end of discussion".

[Warlordtheft]

Of course all of this goes out the window if the target is a human with an Edge score of 8. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

So the gun jams 8 times or the PC becomes a vegatable. Either way it becomes an issue of if the character being unplayable. Burning edge to live does not mean that there aren't consequences (like being incapacitated).

[Starfish]

In such situations, I usually go by the statement on pg. 60:
"The gamemaster should not require a player to make a test when the action is something
that the character should be expected to do without difficulty."

Shooting a helpless person in the head at point blank range is something most people should be capable of, so I skip right to the gory descriptions. If the victim is able and willing to act - that is, not helpless - dice will be rolled.

[WorkOver]

CP2020 actually handled *better* when you ran up the power scale, letting people sling AP ammo, breaking out the serious body armor, and hauling the full-conversion borgs out of the closet. When it was just a bunch of yahoos blasting at each other wearing armored clothing and kevlar bandannas, it was kind of annoying and lethal as hell, but when we started hauling out big guns (and armor to match) it ran pretty smoothly.

The first time one of my augmented players leaned out the back of their REO Meatwagon aerodyne and started sweeping the street with a Helix shotgun (belt fed, 5 barrels, loading AP-flechettes) because he figured "they're over there somewhere," I knew life was getting good. The .50 BMG return fire from the jacked-up gangbanger down the street proved that reconnaisance by fire can do wonders (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Good times man, good times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[WorkOver]

Ok, here is the full scene as to why this is an issue.


Meat body A was grappled. Meat Body B, C,and D where on same team. B, C, and D had A in a cop type hold face down on the ground. You know the hold, officer friendly has the hands in a wrist lock behind his back, another with knee on neck.

B, C had A grappled, D got trigger happy, put gat up to A's head and pulled trigger. The fight was on going, I gave A a defense roll to move head, and D got 2 net successes.

I penalized the dice pool of D to make up for the fact he didn't want to cap his partners by accident, and it was an aimed shot. I penalized A's dice pool for being grappled.

2 net successes, base damage of the weapon, after the soak roll, no effect. I didn't bypass the orthoskin or bone lacing.

Had this have been cyberpunk, A would have made pretty red and pink chunky paint on the concrete.

I couldn't just let A get no soak roll, because the fight was ongoing.

This is no different than an execution, a point blank shot to the side of the head.

Only difference, one target is tied up and on his knees, one target is grappled and on his belly.

In wack ass Palladium or in dead on Cyberpunk, A would be dead.

There should be rules to deal with head shots at point blank range, that keeps the rules lawyers away.

P.S. Next action "A" ate a burst from a Ruger Thunderbolt and is no longer with us.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Depends how many times t reflects on their teeth.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Anyway, me and Garou discuss time to time how simulationist (is this a word?) and lethal a system is by picking an average joe put a gun to his head and pull the trigger folowing all the rules given for a situation like this. Cp2020 works, D&D works (because of coup-de-grace rules), GURPS works, L5R works (in this case putting a sword through your belly). I think there are other but these are the ones I remember right now. Now, while Shadowrun has walked a little away from the pink-mowhak concept, it is still a game about larger than life situations, with dragons, spirits, AI's, Trolls holding MG one handed, etc and I don't think that it should be so easy to kill someone in combat with just one shot, now. Execution is an execution it shouldn't be needed to roll in the first place EVEN if the system was capable to handle it in the first place.

[Caadium]

Ok, here is the full scene as to why this is an issue.


Meat body A was grappled. Meat Body B, C,and D where on same team. B, C, and D had A in a cop type hold face down on the ground. You know the hold, officer friendly has the hands in a wrist lock behind his back, another with knee on neck.

B, C had A grappled, D got trigger happy, put gat up to A's head and pulled trigger. The fight was on going, I gave A a defense roll to move head, and D got 2 net successes.

I penalized the dice pool of D to make up for the fact he didn't want to cap his partners by accident, and it was an aimed shot. I penalized A's dice pool for being grappled.

2 net successes, base damage of the weapon, after the soak roll, no effect. I didn't bypass the orthoskin or bone lacing.

Had this have been cyberpunk, A would have made pretty red and pink chunky paint on the concrete.

I couldn't just let A get no soak roll, because the fight was ongoing.

This is no different than an execution, a point blank shot to the side of the head.

Only difference, one target is tied up and on his knees, one target is grappled and on his belly.

In wack ass Palladium or in dead on Cyberpunk, A would be dead.

There should be rules to deal with head shots at point blank range, that keeps the rules lawyers away.

P.S. Next action "A" ate a burst from a Ruger Thunderbolt and is no longer with us.

In this situation I would not have bypassed Orthoskin or Bone Lacine either. If it was an area that was unarmored I might have given no-armor on the soak roll as a free bonus; or depending on how frenzied the situatino was I might have said use the avoid armor called shot rules. You said it yourself, it was not an easy shot. the target was not completely subdued, had legitimate protections, and so it might not be a garunteed kill.

You applied friends in melee modifiers. I'd have also applied called shot modifiers (the -4 DP for +4 DV on the shot). However, I would also have greatly reduced the Reaction pool for the target (don't have my book handy to tell you what modifiers I'd have used). Since all the target could get is a body twitch and a head move it would have been reduced. Odds are, unless this was a troll, you'd have a near-dead or dead target.

This is one of those situations where the GM has to decide; are thigns still fluid and therefore we should check the stats and luck, or is settled enough that the target should be dead? If the answer is the later, then don't roll. If the answer is the former, you roll it out and play it out. Afterall, strange things can, have, and do happen when people are struggling and someone else is trying to shoot them (be it with a pistol, tazer, whatever).

[Stahlseele]

Ok, here is the full scene as to why this is an issue.


Meat body A was grappled. Meat Body B, C,and D where on same team. B, C, and D had A in a cop type hold face down on the ground. You know the hold, officer friendly has the hands in a wrist lock behind his back, another with knee on neck.

B, C had A grappled, D got trigger happy, put gat up to A's head and pulled trigger. The fight was on going, I gave A a defense roll to move head, and D got 2 net successes.

I penalized the dice pool of D to make up for the fact he didn't want to cap his partners by accident, and it was an aimed shot. I penalized A's dice pool for being grappled.

2 net successes, base damage of the weapon, after the soak roll, no effect. I didn't bypass the orthoskin or bone lacing.

Had this have been cyberpunk, A would have made pretty red and pink chunky paint on the concrete.

I couldn't just let A get no soak roll, because the fight was ongoing.

This is no different than an execution, a point blank shot to the side of the head.

Only difference, one target is tied up and on his knees, one target is grappled and on his belly.

In wack ass Palladium or in dead on Cyberpunk, A would be dead.

There should be rules to deal with head shots at point blank range, that keeps the rules lawyers away.

P.S. Next action "A" ate a burst from a Ruger Thunderbolt and is no longer with us.

See? Now THIS i can live with.
All inside the rules, not just point gun, scratching off ammo and saying he is dead.
And why are people so surprised about this anyway?
Orthoskin and Bone-Armor are made SPECIFICALLY to do this. Technically, there should be no way in hell to circumvent built in cyber/bio/natural/magical Armor EVER.
With the single caveat that magical armor is, of course, still subject to background count. Only worn armor should be applicable to the called shot to the nuts rules.
Back in SR3 the Cyber-Skull had a REALLY nice feature: namely the ability to completely soak one LEVEL of Damage from a called shot to ANYWHERE above the shoulders.
Deadly Damage became Serious business, Serious Business became Moderately annoying, Moderately annoying became Light still on and Light still on became PLINK.
This has not made it into SR4 of course.

[Evilness45]

Execution, if handled correctly using the current rules have VERY high chances of success.
You still need to roll, if only to see if you glitch.

[X-Kalibur]

Just load up a cyberskull with armor. We'll wait =)

[Dixie Flatline]

Ok, here is the full scene as to why this is an issue.


Meat body A was grappled. Meat Body B, C,and D where on same team. B, C, and D had A in a cop type hold face down on the ground. You know the hold, officer friendly has the hands in a wrist lock behind his back, another with knee on neck.

B, C had A grappled, D got trigger happy, put gat up to A's head and pulled trigger. The fight was on going, I gave A a defense roll to move head, and D got 2 net successes.

I penalized the dice pool of D to make up for the fact he didn't want to cap his partners by accident, and it was an aimed shot. I penalized A's dice pool for being grappled.

2 net successes, base damage of the weapon, after the soak roll, no effect. I didn't bypass the orthoskin or bone lacing.

Had this have been cyberpunk, A would have made pretty red and pink chunky paint on the concrete.

I couldn't just let A get no soak roll, because the fight was ongoing.

This is no different than an execution, a point blank shot to the side of the head.

Only difference, one target is tied up and on his knees, one target is grappled and on his belly.

In wack ass Palladium or in dead on Cyberpunk, A would be dead.

There should be rules to deal with head shots at point blank range, that keeps the rules lawyers away.

P.S. Next action "A" ate a burst from a Ruger Thunderbolt and is no longer with us.

So in the middle of combat, someone snapped a shot off at a struggling person who had armored skin and armored skull bones and it didn't kill the target.

That's not an execution. In game, you say the target jerked, the bullet grazed, and didn't do any damage.

I'm not seeing your problem here.

Let me put it another way. If you pointed a .38, point blank range, at someone's head, but there was a half inch of cold steel between you and the target, would you expect the bullet to kill the dude?

[Dumori]

you need the executioner a two barreled Eichiro Hatamoto II. I'll dig up stats.

Edit:
Extended Clip (round fractions up 1.25 is there for 2)
Firing Selection Change SA
cost 800 base 800 for mods
total 1600
add additional clip and extended clip again an you have a nasty side arm... but this version leaves 4 slot free for any needs.

Put this to some ones skull and your almost certain to kill them with both shots if not the first.

[Stahlseele]

Mod it for short burst by firing both barrels at once. Double-Barrelled should mean something.

[Dumori]

Yeah but the +1 dv isn't worth the slot take up in my mind an long with more slots and money.