Schooling, 2070 style., How does the ABC look like in Shadowrun? Options

[Saint Sithney]

If the parents are already indoctrinated, there's no need to break it up as it would occur naturally and cheaper.

If the parents are indoctrinated it's because they were taken off by the corp at a young age and put through the grooming and sorting process which made them the happy slaves they are today. When do you stop doing something that has been proven to work? Besides, not all corp citizens will be from a family heritage of corp citizenship. Extraterritoriality and corporate states aren't that old.

[Manunancy]

Why would there be any physical public schools when you can just buy a Nexus per class and make the kids jack in for x hours a day? Government would just outsource the job to NeoNET and wash their hands of it.

Probably because having a whole generation of kids growing up with both reality impaired (from so much time jacked up into VR) and uncouth (from having only VR interactions with software rather than peoples) disadvantage is going to be an horrible mess.

Note on the 'breaking the family as soon as possible' : I'd rather think it's something the corps will be careful around. Sure you'd rather have the kids growing up attached to the corp rather than their parents, but you're going against some rather deeply rooted biology. And even if you get some thoroughly indoctrinated drones ten years down the line, making half your workforce mad at you in the process will bite your butt well before that. It's made even worse by the fact that most of the added value come froms peoples with creative, problem-solving minds (wether they'reorientd toward material or social issues). Which are the most likely to notice and react poorly to that sort of heavy-duty manipulation.

[Valashar]

Not sure which SR4 book it was in (Unwired, perhaps?), but it's mentioned that Horizon acquired the contract to provide and maintain all educational software for schools in the UCAS and were working on the same for other nations as well.

[Ascalaphus]

Because kids should have physical education classes to avoid obesity and all the stuff that comes from living all your life without leaving your bed? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Simple, give them a Dietware implant. For only 2500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , obesity is now only a problem for the underclass.

[Mongoose]

Sounds interesting, for what purpose though?

It was a metaphore. Basically, they use kids as contract workers, because the computer systems are advancing so fast that anybody who didn't grow up with them is effectively obsolete. They also do stuff like getting them hooked up with custom smart drugs, posing as children "on line" to interact with them, etc.

Ascalphus- a slimworm won't help with muscu-skeletal development, though. Honestly, I think with the popularity of AR games, getting kids (and adults) to exercise would be a snap.

[nezumi]

It's never "simple" installing cyberware on kids. They grow, they change, their physiology is inherently different. not to mention, dietware does nothing to encourage bone density or muscle growth. Yes, you could spend $20-60k/child, plus $10k/yr tweaking and maintaining that gear to make them all instantly "healthy" - but you can also have an empty field and a gym teacher to do that for half the cost, and without causing permanent harm to any prospective mages, and without the liability concerns.

[Ascalaphus]

and without the liability concerns.

Let's be realistic: PE is full of liability concerns. Injuries, psychological damage from consistently being picked last for a team, sexual abuse by teachers.. all manner of things that could go wrong.

I wouldn't be surprised by bioware designed to streamline and assure the proper development of kids' bodies; it just isn't very relevant for adult runners, so it's not in Augmentation. But it fits in neatly with Clean Metabolism, Dietware, genetic optimization, and a lot of the other therapies available.

"Don't let my kid out of the vat until he's past puberty!"

[Mongoose]

Hell, you've got parents giving kids growth hormone shots already, just to avoid them being in the lower 5-10% of normal height. Yeah, "growthware" would probably be a big market, though it would more likely come in the form of drugs and gene treatments than implants.

[hobgoblin]

yay, adhd kids with roid rage...

[nezumi]

Let's be realistic: PE is full of liability concerns. Injuries, psychological damage from consistently being picked last for a team, sexual abuse by teachers.. all manner of things that could go wrong.

We have a pretty strong legal tradition of those not being suable offences (except the lattermost, which would be controlled by 24/7 surveillance). So a school really shouldn't be worrying about that. However, installing 2 essence-worth of cyberware in Johnny, only to find out later that Johnny had significant unawakened magical potential which will forever be curtailed is asking for not only a lawsuit, but a very, very heavy one.

Remember, essence isn't something we can 'heal'. It doesn't fix itself. It can't be created through geneware or diet-mods. And it is absolutely critical for that 1% of the population upon whom something like 20% of the economy balances. It is measurable, it is real. I don't think that any school would do anything which might be construed as possibly resulting in the loss of even .1 essence because of the very serious physical and legal ramifications that come with that.

[Kumo]

I wouldn't be surprised by bioware designed to streamline and assure the proper development of kids' bodies; it just isn't very relevant for adult runners, so it's not in Augmentation. But it fits in neatly with Clean Metabolism, Dietware, genetic optimization, and a lot of the other therapies available.

"Don't let my kid out of the vat until he's past puberty!"

But how profitable would it be? Corp has to invest nuyen in every child, without guarantee of payback. Being a corp executive, I'd gave a discount for some 'ware for kids' parents - they install it for own responsibility (partly - it's their decision; corp doesn't force them to buy it, right?), they pay for it, and they are happy because beloved corporation gave their child good upgrade for a lower price.
And there's always risk of losing a part of valuable Awakened or Emerged asset - child loses a bit of Essence, after all.

Let's be realistic: PE is full of liability concerns. Injuries, psychological damage from consistently being picked last for a team, sexual abuse by teachers.. all manner of things that could go wrong.

But raising a generation of healthy employees is IMO worthy a cost of some traumatized children. They will pay a price, not the corp. And PE fit in some corps' image - like "zaibatsu spirit" of japanacorps (you learn teamwork and "friendly" rivalry during exercises). Or a "proud, strong man" of Ares.

[Draco18s]

Remember, essence isn't something we can 'heal'. It doesn't fix itself.

Actually, we can heal it. But very slowly and very expensively.

Still not worth the risk though (unless you're doing something small, like a data jack--1% odds you need to pay ~85,000 to remove it and get the 0.1 essence back, if the mage so desires).

[Ascalaphus]

But how profitable would it be? Corp has to invest nuyen in every child, without guarantee of payback. Being a corp executive, I'd gave a discount for some 'ware for kids' parents - they install it for own responsibility (partly - it's their decision; corp doesn't force them to buy it, right?), they pay for it, and they are happy because beloved corporation gave their child good upgrade for a lower price.
And there's always risk of losing a part of valuable Awakened or Emerged asset - child loses a bit of Essence, after all.

Don just look at it from a corporate viewpoint, think of the parents. If installing growth controller ware at 3 makes the kid likely to develop an average of 4 in attributes as opposed to the normal average of 3, that investment can really pay off in the long run. It allows the have-parents to outperform have-not parents even more, which is nicely dystopian.

But raising a generation of healthy employees is IMO worthy a cost of some traumatized children. They will pay a price, not the corp. And PE fit in some corps' image - like "zaibatsu spirit" of japanacorps (you learn teamwork and "friendly" rivalry during exercises). Or a "proud, strong man" of Ares.

Those are good points. It's always interesting to see how corporations approach things differently - like MCT emphasizing drones while Ares focuses on manpower when it comes to defense. Just like that, corporations could have different philosophies on how to raise kids. That might be a good reason for soon-to-be parents to organize a volunantary extraction to a more child-friendly corp!

Actually, we can heal it. But very slowly and very expensively.

Still not worth the risk though (unless you're doing something small, like a data jack--1% odds you need to pay ~85,000 to remove it and get the 0.1 essence back, if the mage so desires).

Let's not forget that not everyone has Essence 6 to begin with, only the prime metahuman specimens that typical shadowrunner PCs are made of. Also, many mages choose to implant wares anyway - perticularly some of the useful general performance enhancement wares like cybereyes.

You could use the one essence hole created by the child's growth control implant and use a series of alternate implants.

You could have a trade in second-hand growth control implants. Yuk (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Warlordtheft]

We have a pretty strong legal tradition of those not being suable offences (except the lattermost, which would be controlled by 24/7 surveillance). So a school really shouldn't be worrying about that. However, installing 2 essence-worth of cyberware in Johnny, only to find out later that Johnny had significant unawakened magical potential which will forever be curtailed is asking for not only a lawsuit, but a very, very heavy one.

Remember, essence isn't something we can 'heal'. It doesn't fix itself. It can't be created through geneware or diet-mods. And it is absolutely critical for that 1% of the population upon whom something like 20% of the economy balances. It is measurable, it is real. I don't think that any school would do anything which might be construed as possibly resulting in the loss of even .1 essence because of the very serious physical and legal ramifications that come with that.

Also, for kids you really can't implant cyber as it is very costly to replace after every growth spurt. Generally (from the books, like the Arcoology shutdown), in SR it is frowned upon to do that to kids for those reasons.

[Penta]

I don't see cyber/bio/gene ware for kids.

Pediatric everything is really different from adult medicine. Even adolescents are really different.

Plus, yes, there's always the risk of damaging any potential magical ability (even a Magic of 1 might be useful!).

Y'see, that's the funny thing. The tech might change, but I don't see kids (or childhood) being too different outside of, say, the Barrens.

I could see the corps actually stunting the evolution of childhood, trying to keep to "traditional" notions, as that guarantees markets.
---

Also:

Outside of arcologies, I don't see the corps running too many schools for kids. They'll take the slim risk of security/other problems, for some simple reasons:

1. Running a school, even with software helps, is expensive.
2. All the indoctrination in the world can be broken by normal adolescent stuff, limiting the usefulness of that severely.
3. The Balkanization of countries and the like means you'd effectively have to run different schools in each country, to accommodate differing cultural/linguistic/sociological requirements. Kinda kills the economy of scale the corps rely on.
4. Running a school requires a much different mindset than running a regular corporate division. Limits personnel transferability.
5. It's incredibly difficult to predict at any age under 18 what someone will be like as an adult, limiting the usefulness of "talent scouts". Adolescence in particular brings way too many changes.
6. Any profits are long in the future. Corps, I presume, still live and die by quarterly earnings statements.

More likely, they heavily support public and private schools in the better-off areas. They compete for influence with the nations, the private sponsors, private educational foundations, and the like.

Education, see, is sort of like infrastructure - sure, the corps could do it all themselves, but they aren't going to unless they absolutely must. It's nowhere near profitable enough, and even the best PR would take a huge hit if something happened at a corp-run school. And stuff would happen.

More likely: Corps don't go near the educational stuff, except in the same way, say, textbook publishers do today - very indirectly. More likely, they provide "ancilliary services", the "central office" stuff every school system needs but tends to do badly. Things like providing payroll services, tech support, so forth. (Security would likely be awarded to whomever does municipal security for public schools.)

Plus, as someone noted - Corp extraterritoriality is really young still. It's heavily intimated in Corp Shadowfiles (for instance) that from 2001 up til about the 2020s, the corps were limited in their use of extraterritoriality. Sec forces were more heavily armed, and they may not have paid taxes, but they still acted more like the corps we know than like nation-states.

It was only after the first crash that things started changing. (Shadowrunning is said in one sourcebook to have only made its "modern" form in the 2040s, I seem to remember)

It still seems to me that directly corp-run schools, thus, might be something the corps haven't done yet - and may not get to doing.

[nezumi]

I think you forget the basic tenant of Shadowrun - government is failing to provide these basic services, and so hires (and regularly pays) the corps to do it for them. Schooling is not in and of itself profitable, but when the government is paying you two million a year for a school that costs 1.5M to operate, well... I don't think any of the corps are going to turn up their noses at that.

[hobgoblin]

now i find myself wondering if ares would be pushing the "rugged individual", or even "objectivist" ways.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I think that most public schools would still exist with several corps helping fund them so they can pick talents later on. They might give cheaper food, chips, infra-structure, but let the government manage.

[hobgoblin]

indeed, nothing gives the chills as a corp running what first appears to be a services for the less fortunate, only for them to pick and choose between the best and brightest. heck, they may even give run the whole thing, and give the local government a good deal on the cost.

heck, not just schools, but clinics to, with lax to non-existent government oversight, and plenty of "willing" test subjects.

[Saint Sithney]

Probably because having a whole generation of kids growing up with both reality impaired (from so much time jacked up into VR) and uncouth (from having only VR interactions with software rather than peoples) disadvantage is going to be an horrible mess.

That's a lot of assumption there. Who is to say that these children don't have real teachers and real classmates? Only the environment where they meet needs to be artificial. VR sense feedback can make it just as real as any physical location. As I've said in the past, the technology for fully-real UV nodes is old and outdated by 2070. Strap the kid in to flexible reatraints, turn off the ambulatory control paralysis, and the kid will even get his exercise as he dreams of kickball and jumping jacks.

Note on the 'breaking the family as soon as possible' : I'd rather think it's something the corps will be careful around. Sure you'd rather have the kids growing up attached to the corp rather than their parents, but you're going against some rather deeply rooted biology. And even if you get some thoroughly indoctrinated drones ten years down the line, making half your workforce mad at you in the process will bite your butt well before that. It's made even worse by the fact that most of the added value come froms peoples with creative, problem-solving minds (wether they'reorientd toward material or social issues). Which are the most likely to notice and react poorly to that sort of heavy-duty manipulation.

"As soon as possible" should perhaps be read as "as soon as profitable" instead. So, rather than rearing the kids from robot nipples, perhaps they're taken at 12 for specialized career training. All the time before that, their studies have turned them towards this path and away from the nuclear family unit.

[Ascalaphus]

Also, for kids you really can't implant cyber as it is very costly to replace after every growth spurt. Generally (from the books, like the Arcology shutdown), in SR it is frowned upon to do that to kids for those reasons.

The whole beauty of growth regulation implants is that growth spurts aren't random anymore. Instead of leaving the development of your child to fate, you can guarantee they'll grow to a healthy size, have normal or normalplus brain development, and avoid the messier sides of puberty.

Really, as a teenager, if you could get an implant that totally prevented acne, you'd get it.

Teenagers and their parents are insecure; insecure people are easy marks for the bioware salespeople. And unlike our current age, their products may very likely actually work.

[Saint Sithney]

Here's an idea. Maybe kids can heal essence as they grow up. That's something which ties back into the discussion of Genetic Heritage costing essence. Seems like everyone over a certain pay grade would get a quick gene treatment to remove their pollen allergies...

But, since the body has all its cells replaced every, what, 7 years? I'd say that a kid could get something in, then have it taken out and by the time he's of age, it would be no matter.

[Kumo]

indeed, nothing gives the chills as a corp running what first appears to be a services for the less fortunate, only for them to pick and choose between the best and brightest. heck, they may even give run the whole thing, and give the local government a good deal on the cost.

heck, not just schools, but clinics to, with lax to non-existent government oversight, and plenty of "willing" test subjects.

There are other possiblities: corps could implant memes, test new advertisement on pupils, or even test new drugs.
Example:
MCT developed a new brainbender. In secret they found a non-profit organisation (which uses money from MCT and donations from a helpful people). Non-profit organisation opens some schools in places under Yakuza control. Yakuza sells new drug to pupils and teachers, maybe uses them as some cheap muscles. So MCT has free guinea pigs, may find some talented employees, or profit on something else. Yaks have profit from drug dealing and some little helpers. Everyone is happy (who cares about children and teachers, anyway?).

[hyzmarca]

Schools adapt, but they don't adapt quickly. I was in school with the Berlin Wall fell. For a very long time afterward those social studies textbooks were extremely inaccurate. Public schools are likely to be outdated. And given the vintage of Shadowrun, overrun by gangs.

Think The Substitute starring Tom Berenger; the ideal public school teacher is a military special forces guy/professional mercenary.

[Saint Sithney]

Schools adapt, but they don't adapt quickly. I was in school with the Berlin Wall fell.

Aye, but how long after the wall went up do you think East Berliners were being taught from the old books. Sweeping changes is what authoritarian government is all about.
Things only move slow where there is a) bureaucratic interference or b) a deficit of means.

An authoritarian government can push through anything it likes, and, if you give a mega corp free reign to mold millions of young kid's minds for a one time cost of 100¥ a head, then they'd uniformly jump at that contract. Hell, they'll lobby their asses off just to make it happen and then lowball on the contract.