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KunoNoOni
post Mar 11 2010, 12:00 AM
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I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the greatest GM when it comes to shadowrun. I tend to try and stay within my comfort zone. I know that I can pull rank when they try to do something thats is outside the mission, like trying to get more money from then run. Every run should not be the big score, but it seems that they alway try to squeeze more money out. I get the feeling that if I don't give in then they won't do the run. Has anyone ever had to deal with this? Is there a good way to say there is no more money?

-KunoNoOni
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Karoline
post Mar 11 2010, 12:18 AM
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QUOTE (KunoNoOni @ Mar 10 2010, 07:00 PM) *
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the greatest GM when it comes to shadowrun. I tend to try and stay within my comfort zone. I know that I can pull rank when they try to do something thats is outside the mission, like trying to get more money from then run. Every run should not be the big score, but it seems that they alway try to squeeze more money out. I get the feeling that if I don't give in then they won't do the run. Has anyone ever had to deal with this? Is there a good way to say there is no more money?

-KunoNoOni


Have the J shrug, stand up, and say "Oh well, I can just get another team."

If they don't change their mind, then they don't run. If they don't run, then they don't have money to pay for their rent. Next time a J comes around, feel free to lowball them and stick to it. Eventually they're going to accept a job and be thankful for the fact that they can afford to keep a roof over their head and food in their bellies.

Remind them that they aren't the only runners in the city, and that there is almost certainly a team more strapped for cash that would be happy to take the job for the price their being offered.

Don't do this too often of course. Remember to lowball them and then have them haggle up to the price that the J was actually wanting to pay them. This may be part of the problem. The J should never come in swinging with the price that he actually is willing to pay. He should come in at a much cheaper price, and if the runners don't question it, he gets off lucky, if they do, he lets them 'talk him up' to the price he was ready to pay in the first place. Like I said, if you aren't giving them a low number from the start, this could be where you're problem is coming from, the fact that they expect to be lowballed and that haggling up the price is an age old tradition.
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Lantzer
post Mar 11 2010, 12:22 AM
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Figuring out the right level of money to funnel their way can be a pain. If your group is being imaginative in finding additional sources of cred, I'd make it worth their while. What they are saying to you is that they are hungry for more resources.

That said, you are allowed to make them work for it. If they are that desperate for cred and have the rep to support it, you should send more difficult and higher paying jobs their way. They may succeed or fail, but it's their choice to take them. Of course if they succeed, their rep gets that much better - and so do the jobs.

If they are desperate for cred and their rep _doesn't_ support it, they are known as "marks". Greedy people are easier to scam than satisfied people. This means that a fraction of the jobs that make it their way may not be as ... businesslike ... as normal. Jobs that need patsies. Jobs that need sacrifices. Jobs that aren't actually budgeted for payout.

I'll admit that figuring out the right balance of money in a game is difficult. It will vary with the assortment of characters, campaign feel, player personalities, etc. It gets really hard when one character needs 6-digits to upgrade his cyber a fraction while another is swimming in cash because he's entirely skill-based. I recently lost the rigger in my 3rd edition game because I didn't realize I was starving their bank accounts from their point of view. (Hiya Blog!) Of course, the group turned down a high paying job right after that because they decided they didn't want the risk based on the initial description and and their own estimation of their skill sets.
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KunoNoOni
post Mar 11 2010, 12:28 AM
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I appreciate the replies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Thank you for the information. And yes I wasn't lowballing... something I will not make a mistake of again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-KunoNoOni
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toturi
post Mar 11 2010, 04:20 AM
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First of all, why are your characters runners? Are they runners because they are desperate and can do nothing else? Unlikely but possible. But given 400 BPs or 750 karma, they are likely able to be earning a good living doing things other than as shadowrunners.

While the GM can have the J get up and walk, the players can get up and walk. So it is really up to the GM, which is more important? Keeping the runners down or having a game.
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Fatum
post Mar 11 2010, 10:20 AM
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You can always suggest some reasonable compensation, and suggest an opposed negotiation test with the Johnson to get more.
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kjones
post Mar 11 2010, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 11 2010, 05:20 AM) *
You can always suggest some reasonable compensation, and suggest an opposed negotiation test with the Johnson to get more.


This. An additional 5% per net hit on an opposed Negotiation test is not unreasonable (and remember that most Johnsons are skilled negotiators).
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Warlordtheft
post Mar 11 2010, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (Lantzer @ Mar 10 2010, 07:22 PM) *
Jobs that aren't actually budgeted for payout.



I'm sorry I had a vision of the following.

Your johnson walks past you, tossing a brief case full of certified crdsticks. It was one hell of a run, but you survived and did the job. Unlike the last run were you hosed it.
Not being new to the biz you open up the brief case to examine the cred balances. It was worth noting you earned your pay not only through the run, but the great negotiating you did at the initial meet. You grab one and hit the readout button...it reads "I'm sorry but this job was not budgeted for, please accept my humble apologies for the mees.."

Boom! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)
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Method
post Mar 11 2010, 09:17 PM
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All these ideas are good, but it sounds to me like your group would also benefit from a frank out of character discussion about how everyone thinks underground economies should work in your game. Maybe they haven't thought about the implications of high-balling a Johnson who has a finite budget to get the job done and no shortage of up and coming runners who will do the work. On the other hand, its possible that you are envisioning a more "life is cheep / living hand to mouth / street-level" campaign and they are craving a "black-trenchcoat / elite ass-kicking squad / primer runner" campaign. What I mean is, maybe the problem is that there are different expectations about how a shadowrunning job should work.
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nemafow
post Mar 11 2010, 10:28 PM
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I have the exact opposite problem to you, my players accept the Johnsons price on the get go with no questions asked, not even willing to try and get some more money out of them. Any tips on how to approach this? I wouldn't mind them trying to negotiate?
Should I low-low ball and see their reaction? (I already lowball as it is and they accept that)
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DireRadiant
post Mar 11 2010, 10:41 PM
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Cheat.

Have a series of Johnsons. One single run.

They team turns down the first Johnson, have that J walk away.

Have the Second J offer the team a job. For less money, describe it a little differently then the previous job, but for you as the GM, it's the same one as before, why waste the OOC planning? The J got it subcontracted from the previous J, so he can only offer less money.


Alternatives
Offer the Team a third job for lots of money, but obviously incredibly risky and will get most of the team killed or unable to run for a years afterwards as they will have to hide.

See what they choose.

If they are offered the essential same job for 100% from Johnson A and 90% from Johnson B, which will they choose?

Also consider that a Johnson might pay in kind, offering guns or ware instead of bonuses, which is another tool for you to control what the PCs get.
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Karoline
post Mar 11 2010, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (nemafow @ Mar 11 2010, 05:28 PM) *
Should I low-low ball and see their reaction? (I already lowball as it is and they accept that)


I'd suggest this option. Kick up the lowballing a notch, make it less than they need to eat, make it less than they are likely to spend on bullets. Basically try for a knee jerk "That's not enough." reaction. Could also consider making sure they've read buzzkill from the front of the SR4 book. There is a short negotiation scene where the leader says "Let's cut to the chase and assume you're lowballing me because you Js always lowball." or something along those lines.
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AndyZ
post Mar 11 2010, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE (nemafow @ Mar 11 2010, 05:28 PM) *
I have the exact opposite problem to you, my players accept the Johnsons price on the get go with no questions asked, not even willing to try and get some more money out of them. Any tips on how to approach this? I wouldn't mind them trying to negotiate?
Should I low-low ball and see their reaction? (I already lowball as it is and they accept that)


Have one of their contacts laugh in their faces that they accepted such a low amount. Ally NPCs can be the best teachers to new players.
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Omenowl
post Mar 12 2010, 03:42 AM
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Make the players come up with their own run. Everyone assumes a shadowrun teams sits on their ass waiting for Mr. Johnsons to throw them some money for a job. The big payoffs never come from doing someone elses job, but rather doing your own. Have the Mr. Johnsons actually have something worth more than money such as information, equipment, etc. Things they can't get on their own easily.

Let's be honest the average shadowrunner could be making 5-10k a month on his skills alone working a regular day job assuming he is a sinner without a criminal record. Hell, if they are going to make more money stealing cars then don't expect them to take a job.

Just remember even if they take the job that the pay needs to be high enough where turning on Mr. Johnson is not tempting. So you want me to steal a 10,000,000 nuyen painting and you are going to pay us as a group 20k...
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nemafow
post Mar 12 2010, 03:49 AM
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Thanks for the tips guys, will see if they survive their current run and give it a shot.
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Saint Sithney
post Mar 12 2010, 06:45 AM
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If you want your characters to get hungry for money, offer them shadowbank loans.
They get the gear they so obviously think they deserve, and the debt can be a real motivator to take what they can get when it comes to work.
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Professor Evil O...
post Mar 17 2010, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Mar 11 2010, 03:41 PM) *
Cheat.

Have a series of Johnsons. One single run.

They team turns down the first Johnson, have that J walk away.

Have the Second J offer the team a job. For less money, describe it a little differently then the previous job, but for you as the GM, it's the same one as before, why waste the OOC planning? The J got it subcontracted from the previous J, so he can only offer less money.


That's usually the best way to handle it. A GM can keep 90% of the material he/she prepped that a way. All you really have to do is change the names of NPCs, corps, and locations. It's often helpful to prepare multiple runs in advance. If the players turn down run # 1 you can save it for later and immediately offer them run #2 that you've already prepped. They're less likely to notice that you're recycling material if you don't present it to them for a few sessions.

As for characters refusing work. Talk with the players out of character and explain to them what a typical job should pay in your game, and how players should go about negotiating for extra pay/rewards. Tell them what a typical payout is per runner per job and how far wages vary in each direction. Without knowing that figure they can't say if a wage is low balling or not.
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 17 2010, 05:38 PM
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Slightly different, but not totally unrelated, when I was playing Star Wars D6 (West End Games) the GM had written up several adventures in advance, and we would roll to find work. If we got a good roll, he would up the money offered, but the job was randomly chosen from 1 of 3 he had written up. To save time and material, he could then re-use the other 2 at a later date, just by advancing the opposition or skill rolls required, if necessary, to make the pay feel worth it.
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cndblank
post Mar 18 2010, 05:25 AM
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Also remember that why life is cheap, APDS is not.



The cred a Johnson is offering has to cover the risks involved.

It also has to cover expenditures. Frankly the expenditures are going to weigh heavier on the minds of a runner.

People think they will live forever, but you usually have a real good grasp of what you currently have in the game and where you will be after wear and tear.


So if you have a 100K of gear, how much are you going to need before you are willing to risk losing it all? I won't even go in to burning contacts and reputation to pull a run off and then having to lay low until the heat is off.

Or if you get hurt, then how do you cover the medical and how do you cover the rent until you heal up?

Even if a Street Samurai doesn't get killed or ends up on death row, if he does get arrested, there is a fair chance he could loses all of his cyberware.

Riggers are some of the worse on this, cause they have so much to lose (although the ultra cheap prices of drones is making it better).

A rigger could loses a 50 or 100K worth of drones on a single successful run.


Say a rigger has 120K worth of drones and ammo and expects to have to replace or repair 100% of it over 12 major runs.

That means he will expect 10K upfront before he powers up a single drone.

That is cred to just maintain his gear in it's current state. It doesn't cover his lunch or rent.

So 10 or 20K for pulling off a couple of felonies sounds like a lot until you realize how much the runner is risking if the run goes south.
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