[X] My Assistant

[pbangarth]

Recent discussions elsewhere on DS prompt me to start this thread. I would like to engender a discussion about the practical ways possession can be used in game play, and the practical concerns that might come up in a player's or GMs mind about powers, abilities and side effects.

There have been enough discussions about whether possession is 'broken' or not. We don't need another thread going over the same ground. Nor do we need to compare how possession is better or worse than materialization.

What I do want is practical, tactical and nuts-and-bolts. For example, from recent posts elsewhere:

Energy Aura is fun. But what if you don't want to set fire to the floor with every step as you enter the facility?

Another issue is the cost. Bullets are cheap. Grenades are cheap. Even whole guns are cheap, in comparison to binding materials. If you want a Force 4 spirit on hand to boost you up when needed, that's 2,000¥ you'll pay out. A lot of money for one or two fights. I've had my group on runs for only 5,000¥ each. Does the character really want to blow nearly half their pay on spirits before they even get started?

For issues such as these, what I would like to see are posts dealing with:
1) How does one using possession account for and overcome difficulties?
2) How does one using possession make innovative uses of the abilities possession gives him?
3) How does a GM have fun challenging users of possession?
4) What things could really nail a user of possession to the wall if the GM could only think of them?

Information such as this would help both players and GMs come up with better play. I'm looking forward to a very informative discussion!

[Saint Sithney]

Generally, when you're possessed, you are no longer in control of your own actions. How is this not a deal breaker?

EDIT:
Sorry for being so terse. I'll spell out some role playing issues with self-possession for RPers and GMs and how they can be addressed.

Okay, let's examine some ways to view the problems which come from riding along with an extra-planar entity.
1) Speech is handled by proxy. The player whispers to the GM what he wants to say, the GM tells the groups what the spirit possessing the character says. This is necessary to maintaining the feel of possession. Allowing the player to think that he is in control is not good form.

2) Movement and basic "non-roll" actions are a given, but also any defensive actions should be automatic. Passive perception, dodge, even vehicle crash tests should all be handled by the spirit without any needed input from the player. Self-preservation is never a service. However any aggressive or decisive action which calls for a roll takes up a service as does calling off such an act. This results in a possessed character being like a compressed spring. The character lurches along only reacting to the world, until the moment comes to act, at which point they act in an overwhelming manner. This manner, that of a bomb waiting to go off, should be apparent in the player's interactions. Imagine a player, instead of rushing in to attack a group of gangers, walking up to them and telling them in an otherworldly voice that he just got finished with their mothers and has a bill for services rendered. Every fight picked is a freebie, so remember what you learned from The Exorcist and talk mad shit. This can keep you from running out of services with potential hostiles about.

[pbangarth]

Generally, when you're possessed, you are no longer in control of your own actions. How is this not a deal breaker?

This is a set of guidelines for the players and GMs on how to use, and challenge the use of possession. When to do it, how to deal with problems (like 'before Channeling the possessed loses control'), what points to keep in mind as player and/or GM.

The vessel losing control may actually be part of the plan, if you have a spirit possess an opponent.

[Whipstitch]

Binding costs and the number of services you're likely to actually end up with are something that gets left out of far too many conversations on proper spirit deployment-- and that goes for Materialization as well. Having a bound uber-spirit is often only useful in theory-- once you factor in the amount of services you can realistically expect and the risk entailed in creating one plus the odds of the GM slapping you on the noggin, it becomes clear why they're usually relegated to thought exercises. In practice, my most successful Conjurer only summoned high force spirits for spot work and emergency situations like combat and went for quantity AND quality with his bound spirits by using Invoking on relatively li'l fellas. With enough dice and a li'l luck you can get a couple Great Form Powers or Spirits with LOS(A) attacks out of a squad of Force 3s, and I'd much rather have something with Astral Gateway and a decent amount of services than a bound Force 6+ that will make blood come out of my ears when I try to Invoke it.

[Fatum]

Generally, when you're possessed, you are no longer in control of your own actions. How is this not a deal breaker?

Street Magic explicitly states that when your own spirit possesses you, you can direct his actions via the mental link, without services expended on that.

[pbangarth]

Street Magic explicitly states that when your own spirit possesses you, you can direct his actions via the mental link, without services expended on that.

Quite right, but the meat body is under the direct control of the spirit, and only indirectly controlled by the summoner by giving commands to the spirit. This is then compounded by the fact that the summoner, inside his own, possessed body, cannot do things like cast spells.*

*On the physical plane. He could project and act independently on the astral plane. One potential use of possession is to keep the summoner's meat body safe while he projects and bombs around the astral plane. Things like shedim and jealous mundanes love to find empty shells left behind by projecting mages.

[knasser]

Binding costs and the number of services you're likely to actually end up with are something that gets left out of far too many conversations on proper spirit deployment-- and that goes for Materialization as well. Having a bound uber-spirit is often only useful in theory-- once you factor in the amount of services you can realistically expect and the risk entailed in creating one plus the odds of the GM slapping you on the noggin, it becomes clear why they're usually relegated to thought exercises. In practice, my most successful Conjurer only summoned high force spirits for spot work and emergency situations like combat and went for quantity over quality with his bound spirits. With enough dice and a li'l luck you can get a couple Great Form Powers or Spirits with LOS(A) attacks out of your li'l squad of Force 3s.

The reason that I raised binding costs as a factor for possession but not materialisation was not because they are not a factor for materialisation but because there are two additional issues for possession. Firstly the example used in the thread that spawned this one, was a PC that was specifically built around using spirits for self-possession for combat (and that's usually what people have in mind for possession mages, anyway). In this case, you need the spirit to be bound because you don't want to be going through a summoning process at the start of combat when you still have another two phases to go on top of that (order spirit to possess you. let spirit possess you) before you can actually get any use out of this. Also, you don't want to leave this sort of thing up to chance in the middle of combats. It's not a legal requirement, but if your possasession mage isn't using bound spirits, he will suffer for this whereas with materialisation, the addition of the summoning process isn't as big an issue. Secondly, possession spirits have a higher minimum requirement of force to be useful for these purposes. A force 1 or 2 materialisation spirit can actually be very useful. A similarly forced possession spirit is near useless at possessing hostile targets and doesn't give you enough benefit when possessing you to make it worthwhlie building a character around this. And worse, if you use a low-force spirit, you're actually weakening yourself due to using the mental attributes of a low-force spirit and, by RAW, possibly reducing your Magic rating as well.

Anyway, I can deconstruct possession rules and list their disadvantages all day. pbangarth asked for advice on how to play it, not whether or not you should.

My first advice is a general caveat: don't build a character around becoming super tough when possessed. Until you initiatie and get the Channelling metamagic it's a nightmare. After you get it, it's still riddled with problems. Don't be a one-trick pony.

Now assuming you are a possession based magician, avoid the following tactics:

• Self-possesion by low-force spirits. You'll gain little, lose a lot (low mental attributes, low Magic rating)
• Attempting to possess enemies with low-force spirits. It's too chancy unless you've run out of more reliabe tactics and most of the time it would be more effective just to use your magic to subdue or kill the enemy. And remember that you wont be fooling anyone with your possessed person - it will be obvious to their friends that they are possessed (see "Spotting Spirits" in the books). Reserve this tactic for important enemies and use higher force spirits. Remember, you're still using a service even if your spirit spends the entire combat trying and failing to possess someone.

Beware of the following gotchas:

• Having yourself possessed and ordering the spirit to attack and kill your enemies if you don't have a second service ready and you're uncertain as to the outcome of the fight. The spirit will then plunge into combat and if things go against you, you've no way to countermand the orders and simply dismissing the spirit will drop you in the midst of a bunch of enemies without its protection anymore. Obviously the channelling metamagic will alleviate this.
• Forgetting that you will lose any additional condition monitor boxes when the spirit departs, potentially endangering your life.

Do use the following tactics:

• Have a bound spirit under orders to possess your body if you are rendered unconcious and to get you out of their and to medical help. The extra condition boxes you suddenly get could save your life as will being in a hospital when you suddenly lose them. The Immunity to Normal Weapons will also help you in your retreat. Movement power and Concealment are a double bonus if your spirit has them.
• Keep a reasonably high-power spirit bound for taking down very tough mundane enemies. This is effective both because it eliminates them and because it gains you a very powerful ally.
• Put effort into powerful prepared vessels. This can be a low willpower troll samurai you keep locked in your basement, a golem you take on runs with you or a decent drone. Possessing high-tech items such as drones is difficult and requires a decent force spirit, but the results are impressive. For example, a Steel Lynx with some extra armour, an LMG and being ridden by a force 5 spirit is quite scary and has magical protection that an ordinary drone does not. You can also do impressive things with para-animals such as Hell Hounds, although Inhabitation by an Ally spirit is better.
• Take a few simple pets with you for possession by low-force spirits as needed. You're going to kick yourself if you're locked in a prison cell and you just need to get the passkey off the sleeping guard's belt. A materialisation magician just sends out a Force 1 spirit to get it. You'll need your faithful pet monkey with you to do the same. (Possessed monkeys look extremely scary, btw). There are hundreds of situations like this.

That's all I have time for, for now.

K.

[pbangarth]

An addendum to knasser's last point: a cute little mobile emotitoy possessed by a significant Force spirit (it has to be relatively high Force to overcome the Object Resistance, and Prepare the vessel first) can be a useful ally. It helps you in negotiations, and can rip the face off the other guy if negotiations go wrong.

[dirkformica]

For issues such as these, what I would like to see are posts dealing with:
1) How does one using possession account for and overcome difficulties?
2) How does one using possession make innovative uses of the abilities possession gives him?

1.) When dealing with the potential cost of Binding, an investment of at least 3 but preferably 4 points of Edge will come in handy. When you summon, make sure you get as many net hits as you can by summoning and dismissing until you get a good initial set of hits and then you should spend edge to gain some more. Use edge during drain and binding as necessary. Also, bind in your downtime so damage becomes meaningless.

When summoning for actual action, don't wait until you are on the run. Wake up each morning and if you aren't trying to use a spirit higher than your magic, you can again summon and dismiss until you get a large number of services. Just sleep an extra hour or two to regain any stun damage. This is just good general summoning advice.

2.) My favorite trick with possession is to get Invoking metamagic and have a tradition that allows access to the Endowment great form power (Task and Guardian spirits.) This will allow you to negate some of the disadvantages of possession such as having the spirit be in control of your body and not you. Invoke a great form and have it Endow you with Possession. Now you can astrally project and posses yourself.

It seems like many people view Possession as a way to buff yourself, but it seems to me that it is potentially better as a way to negate enemies. If you have sufficiently powerful spirits so they can reliably possess the enemy you will gain allies and remove opposition in one fell swoop. This can also be useful when you can astrally scout and then possess a target on site for infiltration purposes. With a summon, bound spirit(s), and the endowment trick you can assemble a reasonable team nearly instantly at your target location and eliminate enemies beforehand. Task spirits can really shine here as well since you can potentially possess a target on-site and then use whatever bonus skills you will need for the job such as Hardware or Guardian spirits if you want the head of security to suddenly turn his weapons on his men.

One problem with possession is that the higher the force is, the more likely you are to be noticed as obviously possessed. This can be mitigated somewhat by spells such as Improved Invisibility or better yet Trid Phantasm.

[toturi]

My advice to GMs with players with possession (especially once they get the Metamagics like Channeling) is you can see the tactic/s from a mile away, be psychologically prepared for it.

By that I do not mean be prepared with countermeasures but be prepared to allow it to happen and allow it to be beneficial to the character. Why? Summoning and binding the spirit isn't easy and the karma investment into the metamagics aren't cheap either. The key here is to recognise that the player doing this isn't really looking to be "challenged".

[LurkerOutThere]

GM's: Don't allow possession, don't use possession, profit from reduction in headache due to the removal of crappy possession rules.

[Tanegar]

When you summon, make sure you get as many net hits as you can by summoning and dismissing until you get a good initial set of hits and then you should spend edge to gain some more. [...] Wake up each morning and if you aren't trying to use a spirit higher than your magic, you can again summon and dismiss until you get a large number of services.

I would punish this sort of metagaming. I'd start by slapping a threshold on all Summoning tests; say, [3]. That is, you need three hits to conjure anything at all. I'd increase the threshold by 1 for each subsequent attempt within an hour. So, if I have a magician who summons and dismisses three times in an hour, his tests would have thresholds of [3], [4], and [5], respectively. If he wants an explanation, I would tell him that the spirits don't appreciate being used as yo-yos.

If he insists on abusing summoning, I'd have a Great Form spirit pay him a visit to explain the error of his ways.

[AngelisStorm]

I would punish this sort of metagaming. I'd start by slapping a threshold on all Summoning tests; say, [3]. That is, you need three hits to conjure anything at all. I'd increase the threshold by 1 for each subsequent attempt within an hour. So, if I have a magician who summons and dismisses three times in an hour, his tests would have thresholds of [3], [4], and [5], respectively. If he wants an explanation, I would tell him that the spirits don't appreciate being used as yo-yos.

If he insists on abusing summoning, I'd have a Great Form spirit pay him a visit to explain the error of his ways.

I hope you warn players -before- they make characters of such house rules. I would be pissed if a GM I was playing with started making arbitary rules to screw my character over. (If you've warned them -before- character creation, or at least before the game starts, then "summoner beware.")

Do I agree with bungee summoning? Not really; it's pretty annoying. But I would rather use in game options (Edge to resist, Spirit Bane, Mentor spirit having a talk with the summoner) to solve such problems.

[Udoshi]

1.) When dealing with the potential cost of Binding, an investment of at least 3 but preferably 4 points of Edge will come in handy. When you summon, make sure you get as many net hits as you can by summoning and dismissing until you get a good initial set of hits and then you should spend edge to gain some more. Use edge during drain and binding as necessary. Also, bind in your downtime so damage becomes meaningless.

That seems like a good way to get a spirit to slap you with the 'YOU'VE BEEN A DICK TO SPIRITS' mark, that all spirits can see with an assensing(1) test. Its like a sex-offender's list for spirits. And when you really need spirits on your side to use possession-based shenanigans for ultimate power, having your powerbase pissed at you seems like a really, really bad idea.


Also, has anyone mentioned SpiritWires with Channeling, and guardian/task/guidance spirits?

[toturi]

I would punish this sort of metagaming. I'd start by slapping a threshold on all Summoning tests; say, [3]. That is, you need three hits to conjure anything at all. I'd increase the threshold by 1 for each subsequent attempt within an hour. So, if I have a magician who summons and dismisses three times in an hour, his tests would have thresholds of [3], [4], and [5], respectively. If he wants an explanation, I would tell him that the spirits don't appreciate being used as yo-yos.

If he insists on abusing summoning, I'd have a Great Form spirit pay him a visit to explain the error of his ways.

Such a GM move merits a sledgehammer with his name on it to his face. Followed by an anvil to his balls. After that if he does not recant, maybe he can take a bungee jump sans bungee cord.

When the player does this, this means he is not likely to appreciate your pissing on his parade.

[Tanegar]

Such a GM move merits a sledgehammer with his name on it to his face. Followed by an anvil to his balls. After that if he does not recant, maybe he can take a bungee jump sans bungee cord.

When the player does this, this means he is not likely to appreciate your pissing on his parade.

Such a player move merits a shotgun blast to the face. Less poetic, perhaps, but it gets the point across.

Care to try again, without the childish references to violence?

Kindly note that I never said I would apply such measures to all magicians, only the ones who insist on being munchkins. If you abuse the system, the system will abuse you back. Resisting the summons with Edge and creative use of Spirit Bane are also excellent ideas; I'm not sure how effective the mentor spirit would be, though. If the magician is already behaving this way, he clearly does not hold spirits in high regard to begin with. In extreme cases, I might have his mentor abandon him.

[Fatum]

Quite right, but the meat body is under the direct control of the spirit, and only indirectly controlled by the summoner by giving commands to the spirit. This is then compounded by the fact that the summoner, inside his own, possessed body, cannot do things like cast spells.

Why wouldn't he be able to cast unless he has geasa? He sees the target, and doesn't require anything else by default.

[Whipstitch]

Kindly note that I never said I would apply such measures to all magicians, only the ones who insist on being munchkins. If you abuse the system, the system will abuse you back.

I don't really consider it abuse. The magician is still risking drain and making tests and cutting deals with spirits in this case. There's already built in consequences to the situation and down time isn't always as peaceful as the runners hope it might be, which can be problem when you consider that summoning drain tends to be rather volatile. Further, some traditions such as Black Magic have a somewhat adversarial relationship with spirits to begin with, after all, so searching for a spirit you can mentally dominate is hardly out of character. If someone really pushes their luck for long enough I might have a Spirit use Edge now and again as per the RAW suggestions, but I agree with toturi insofar that your reaction to the idea seems like an overreaction, particularly since frankly, it rather makes sense that Magicians would do this sort of thing.

[AngelisStorm]

There is precident in SR history for Mentors abandoning their magicians, in extreme situations. Which is what would happen,if a magician doesn't listen to his Mentor spirit (some Mentor spirits exempt).

And that isn't the "system abusing back," that's changing the rules when the player is doing something which is legitimate (though annoying). As mentioned, warn the players before hand about such rules, or talk to the player about his techniques if you have problems with it.

[Tanegar]

I don't really consider it abuse. The magician is still taking drain and making tests and cutting deals with spirits.

That's the thing: he's not cutting deals. He's summoning a spirit, then saying (to at least some of them) "You don't owe me enough to make it worthwhile for me to keep you around, so piss off." Thus, the angry spirits. Get enough spirits pissed at you, you're going to have trouble summoning new ones.

[LurkerOutThere]

Such a GM move merits a sledgehammer with his name on it to his face. Followed by an anvil to his balls. After that if he does not recant, maybe he can take a bungee jump sans bungee cord.

When the player does this, this means he is not likely to appreciate your pissing on his parade.

Nothing like and ITG in his finest.

[toturi]

Such a player move merits a shotgun blast to the face. Less poetic, perhaps, but it gets the point across.

Care to try again, without the childish references to violence?

Kindly note that I never said I would apply such measures to all magicians, only the ones who insist on being munchkins. If you abuse the system, the system will abuse you back. Resisting the summons with Edge and creative use of Spirit Bane are also excellent ideas; I'm not sure how effective the mentor spirit would be, though. If the magician is already behaving this way, he clearly does not hold spirits in high regard to begin with. In extreme cases, I might have his mentor abandon him.

Violence? This is not violence, it simply aids to get the point across more emphatically.

Care to try again, without the childish phallic reference?

It is not munchkinism. It is the rules. The system cannot be abused, it can only be used. The system allows such, thus it should be allowed to happen. The player character can do this, so can the non-player characters. Factoring "feelings" or how the magician treats his "spirits" is simply another GM house rule.

That's the thing: he's not cutting deals. He's summoning a spirit, then saying (to at least some of them) "You don't owe me enough to make it worthwhile for me to keep you around, so piss off." Thus, the angry spirits. Get enough spirits pissed at you, you're going to have trouble summoning new ones.

Ah, but he is not saying that, he is saying, "I am sorry. But you do not seem to be the type that is willing to work for me long term, you are free to go." That's a response that could come from a Charisma based mage. A Logic based mage would go, "I regret to inform you that your services are terminated due to your lack of commitment. Please vacate my spirit limit. Thank you." Intuition may go, "You know dude, you really aint cut out for this kind of thing, man. Sorry but come on... 1 service? Since you don't wanna work for me, you can leave, man."

[Whipstitch]

So would you rather he send the Spirit to go pick up the laundry first? Okay, so technically minor tasks such as "Hand me that spanner," don't even cost services, but hopefully you get the drift. From a roleplaying stand point, yes, spirits may be miffed that someone doesn't seem to be happy with the "standard" deal. But frankly, someone ceding services is likely just a somewhat annoying situation but still preferable to being summoned and immediately pressed into combat.

[LurkerOutThere]

Violence? This is not violence, it simply aids to get the point across more emphatically.

Care to try again, without the childish firearm reference?

It is not munchkinism. It is the rules. The system cannot be abused, it can only be used. The system allows such, thus it should be allowed to happen. The player character can do this, so can the non-player characters. Factoring "feelings" or how the magician treats his "spirits" is simply another GM house rule.

Actually it is a setting conceit functioning on the theory that spirits are more then just random piles of numbers waiting to come at a casters will.

[Fatum]

how the magician treats his "spirits" is simply another GM house rule.

Except it's explicitly stated in the books that spirits edge rolls when an abusive magician summons them and do everything in their power to bring the guy down.