Hurting Spirits, as a non-mage Options

[Neraph]

Chemicals and EX weapons don't penetrate ITNW and Stick n Shock and lasers only do because they penetrate at -1/2 AP. Checmicals don't affect spirits because they have no skin, lungs, digestive system or blood stream and therefore can't be affected by contact, air, ingestion, or injection vector toxins.

Unfortunately, RAW does not agree with this statement, insofar as Contact and Injection vectors at least. I can see the argument for ingestion and inhalation, but not Contact or Injection. Same thing with RAW Contact Vector with vehicles.

This is not to say this is how it should be run, but you should at least have a warning that you are talking about house rules, and mention it does in fact work by RAW.

[Sengir]

If memory serves - reach modifiers apply to Tests of Charisma (or whatever it's called). Ergo, even a Charisma: 1 street sam can move a force 10 Earth Elemental with a long enough lever... err... weapon. There's no requirement that the weapon have any actual damage code of its own, either. So a fishing line with a weight at the end is the classic answer.

Street Magic begs to differ:
The character rolls his Banishing + Willpower (or just Willpower) as his dice pool, and his base Damage Value is (Charisma)P regardless of whether he is attacking with a spanner, combat axe, or his bare hands. Reach modifiers (attacker’s or spirit’s) do not apply to this test. The attack of will bypasses the spirit’s Immunity to Normal Weapons and is otherwise resolved as a normal melee attack

[nezumi]

Well clearly your book is broken (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Cwell]

i'm sorry to say that, from what i read, you're wrong about certain effects working versus Spirit immunity to normal weapon, such as Electricity or other mundane elemental effects (taser, stick'n'shock, flame thrower, chemicals, stuff like that)

Immunity to Normal Weapons:
This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers).
If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.

Meaning, only magical effects or damage will work on materialized (or possessing) Spirits as detailed in the parenthesis.
A water canon would only work versus a Fire Elemental (Water allergy), etc.

So yeah, AP ammo types are worth their high price to hit those badies. Chemicals have no effect unless it's a magic one.
Burst modifier does not help to overcome the hardened armor.
Only basic damage (net hits + weapon + ammo type) vs modified armor (Force*2 modified by weapon AP & ammo AP)
Awakened are highly looked after for that reason too, they can harm them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)

This post has been edited by Cwell: Mar 17 2010, 05:45 PM

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Unfortunately, RAW does not agree with this statement, insofar as Contact and Injection vectors at least. I can see the argument for ingestion and inhalation, but not Contact or Injection. Same thing with RAW Contact Vector with vehicles.

This is not to say this is how it should be run, but you should at least have a warning that you are talking about house rules, and mention it does in fact work by RAW.

Pg. 254 SR4a
Vector
Vector is the method in which the toxin can be applied.
Contact toxins (in liquid or gas form) must be applied to the target’s
skin. If coated on a weapon, they may be applied with a successful
melee attack (whether or not they cause damage). A chemical seal
(p. 327) offers complete protection unless breached (by an attack causing
damage), while chemical protection (p. 327) gives a bonus equal to
its rating to the Toxin Resistance Test.
Ingestion toxins must be eaten by the victim. They generally take
longer to have an effect. Digestive expansion bioware (p. 345) gives a
bonus of +2 to the Toxin Resistance Test against ingested substances.
Inhalation toxins must be inhaled by the target and are applied as
an aerosol spray or gas. A target wearing a gas mask, chemical seal, or
using an activated cyberware internal air tank (p. 342) is immune to
its effects. Chemical protection gives a bonus equal to its rating to the
Toxin Resistance Test.
Injection toxins must be injected into the target’s bloodstream.
Similar to contact toxins, they may be used to coat a bladed (not
blunt) melee weapon and applied with a successful damage-causing
melee attack.

Pg. 91 Runner's Companion
Free Spirit Nature
A free spirit, in its materialized form, is made of energy in
the form of a set of coherent forces. These forces effect the space
around it, giving it the illusion of shape, mass, and appearance.
The interaction of these forces with the physical world cause light
to reflect at various wavelengths, making it possible for cameras,
ultrasound, radar, and other physical detection methods to perceive
the spirit. A free spirit has the “look and feel” of a physical
being, based on the form it took before it became free, but it is
not made of the materials that appear to make it up; “skin” will
not tan or sunburn, “iron” will not be attracted to magnets. The
spirit has no mass, but the forces in its form have all of the effects
of a body with mass, according to its Physical attributes. A result of
being comprised of energy is that the spirit needs no clothes, food,
or shelter to survive, although, in many cases, the spirit can wear
clothing, eat food (which it can later expel discreetly), and live in
a home, as the social situation warrants. Free spirits may not have
technological augmentations.

This isn't house ruling anything, spirits by RAW don't have skin or a bloodstream, their materialized forms are nothing more than energy manipulating the space around them to seem like matter. Because they don't have skin, a toxin can't be applied to their skin to take effect. Because they don't have a blood stream, a toxin can't be injected into their bloodstream to take effect. Vehicles don't have skin or a bloodstream or lungs or a digestive tract either so they also can't be affected by toxins.

[Cwell]

Street Magic begs to differ:
The character rolls his Banishing + Willpower (or just Willpower) as his dice pool, and his base Damage Value is (Charisma)P regardless of whether he is attacking with a spanner, combat axe, or his bare hands. Reach modifiers (attacker’s or spirit’s) do not apply to this test. The attack of will bypasses the spirit’s Immunity to Normal Weapons and is otherwise resolved as a normal melee attack

It looks a lot like the Astral Combat definition (Willpower + Astral Combat skill) to hit an Astral form (NOT dual/materialized) for an Astral Perceving entity (dual or astral, like a mage in astral perception or projection)

I found it :

Attack of Will
An attack of will may only be conducted with a physical or astral melee attack—willpower simply doesn’t work with ranged attacks.
Sometimes you are better off trying to smack a spirit with a gun than attempting to shoot it. While an attack of will can damage a spirit in spite of its formidable resilience to non-magical attack, only the truly courageous, driven, or mad have enough force of personality to affect a spirit.
When in melee with a spirit, a character may elect to make an attack of will rather than a normal melee strike. The character rolls his Banishing + Willpower (or just Willpower) as his dice pool, and his base Damage Value is (Charisma)P regardless of whether he is attacking with a spanner, combat axe, or his bare hands. Reach modifiers (attacker’s or spirit’s) do not apply to this test.
The attack of will bypasses the spirit’s Immunity to Normal Weapons and is otherwise resolved as a normal melee attack (see p. 146, SR4).
This form of attack is only effective against spirits.

It should say that without Banishing (which should/may be Astral Combat), it uses Willpower -1 and not Willpower.
Maybe an old piece from SR3 where Astral Combat skill did not exist ?

Anyway, a Mundane is doomed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

Patrick, from a strictly rules monkey point of view, as others have pointed out. A free spirit is a spirit, but not all spirits are free spirits. If the book doens't specificly exclude it from being affected then it's not excluded, by the raw.

[Lantzer]

Patrick, from a strictly rules monkey point of view, as others have pointed out. A free spirit is a spirit, but not all spirits are free spirits. If the book doens't specificly exclude it from being affected then it's not excluded, by the raw.

Blink. Blink. So by rules-monkey thinking, an earth elemental in the form of a big rock, can be poisoned? An Air elemental in the form of a dust devil can be tasered? But only if it's not a free elemental?

Considering how much 4th ed. relies on GM adjudication and interpretation, compared to earlier editions, I'd say this is likely a matter of the writers overlooking the problem.

Silly rules monkeys. I may be unfair and arbitrary, but I at least try to be internally consistent.

[Fatum]

Patrick, from a strictly rules monkey point of view, as others have pointed out. A free spirit is a spirit, but not all spirits are free spirits. If the book doens't specificly exclude it from being affected then it's not excluded, by the raw.

Are you saying that other non-free kinds of materializing spirits do in fact possess bloodstream or skin or cell structures to be affected by the toxins?
The book does specifically state it's not so.

[DireRadiant]

Magic and Physics = Head explode yuchies.

I generally go with if the Spirit is Materialized it has decided to join the Real World. It can affect the Real World, and the Real World can affect it.

It's magic, despite the fact it does not have skin and bones and flesh and blood and nerves and all that crap, the fact that it can punch me in the face means my face can hit it right back. Maybe not very effectively but never the less it can.

Just as MAGIC let's the otherworld ectoplasmic goo punch me to good effect, why can't MAGIC let the cool SnS round make the Spirit suffer from it's affects? Who says it's a one way street where the spirit ectoplasmic goo only gets to work in one direction? Magic working on one direction across planar barriers doesn't work for anything else?

[Sengir]

It should say that without Banishing (which should/may be Astral Combat), it uses Willpower -1 and not Willpower.

There are some actions (like using an autopicker) which essentially allow free defaulting, I guess this is one of them.

Anyway, a Mundane is doomed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Pretty much, yes. Unless the spirit has some allergy like Invae have against insecticides.

[Stahlseele]

Spraying Fists with insecticide and then pummeling them to death sounds cool ^^

[Fatum]

Spraying Fists with insecticide and then pummeling them to death sounds cool ^^

Crushing spirits with your mind sounds even cooler.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Crushing spirits with your mind sounds even cooler.

Some of us aren't the 1/1000 born with magical talent.

We're the 1/1000000 born with Astral Hazing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Falconer]

flechette works well too. While it adds to their armor, it only does so after the comparison with resistance to normal weapons. So a mossberg CMDT is 9p with two net hits will tag a force 5 spirit. Bigger spirits just need more love, add two hits per force.

Since I haven't seen anyone else counter this. This is blatantly incorrect. I remember when I was originally taken to task for making this statement.

The AP mod is added to the hardened armor to determine the damage threshhold test, making flechette the WORST ammo pick to use.
QUOTE:
"If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (MODIFIED BY ARMOR PENETRATION)..." IE using flechettes is giving em a freebie +5 points of armor.

I originally thought this as well, and got taken to task for it... (back when I argued hardened stacked and was trying to make sense of the AP rules). It was pointed out that hardened doesn't stack and it's a seperate damage test. It makes a lot of sense... okay you shoot the sucker w/ APDS... which gets reduced first, normal armor or hardened if both are present? The correct answer, is it's two damage tests... first test... is the modified hardened armor total greater or equal to the damage, if so that ends it. If not, resist damage w/ the higher total of worn or hardened armor, again modified by AP.

[Cwell]

Magic and Physics = Head explode yuchies.

I generally go with if the Spirit is Materialized it has decided to join the Real World. It can affect the Real World, and the Real World can affect it.

It's magic, despite the fact it does not have skin and bones and flesh and blood and nerves and all that crap, the fact that it can punch me in the face means my face can hit it right back. Maybe not very effectively but never the less it can.

Just as MAGIC let's the otherworld ectoplasmic goo punch me to good effect, why can't MAGIC let the cool SnS round make the Spirit suffer from it's affects? Who says it's a one way street where the spirit ectoplasmic goo only gets to work in one direction? Magic working on one direction across planar barriers doesn't work for anything else?

It does work, as long as it beats the Hardened Armor of Forcex2 modified by attack/ammo type.
So Electrical attacks using "Half Impact" are pretty nice
Chemicals too have a DV and need to overcome the hardened armor (unless specifically stated, like the anti-bug thingy for Insect Spirits)

[Kliko]

It does work, as long as it beats the Hardened Armor of Forcex2 modified by attack/ammo type.
So Electrical attacks using "Half Impact" are pretty nice
Chemicals too have a DV and need to overcome the hardened armor (unless specifically stated, like the anti-bug thingy for Insect Spirits)

Brilliant! Problems with spirits? Beat them into submission with a Stun baton! Turns your average mall cop into Simon the Spirit Slayer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Particle_Beam]

Don't burst-damage-value-mofifiers count towards the dv to look if you can overcome the hardened armor-properties of spirits?

The image of a rampaging spirit being gunned down by several people emptying their ammo is cool, and it would be kinda sad (and making mages too important) if that was changed.

[Werewindlefr]

[...]

Special weapons like flame throwers, water cannons and lasers should have such an effect.

They are not, however, magic, and as such do not bypass immunity to Normal Weapons in my game.

Awakened are highly looked after for that reason too, they can harm them.

So can a vigorous.

Don't burst-damage-value-mofifiers count towards the dv to look if you can overcome the hardened armor-properties of spirits?

No. If magic can deflect a bullet, then in can deflect your 100 rounds ammo belt. Get a bigger weapon, a sniper, or take shooting lessons.


Killing a spirit ain't that bad. You aim, you use a called shot. +4 damage, making an assault rifle good enough against Force 5, and with a bit of luck, Force 6. For anything bigger, well, there are other solutions.

[Falconer]

Brilliant! Problems with spirits? Beat them into submission with a Stun baton! Turns your average mall cop into Simon the Spirit Slayer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Don't laugh... defiance EX shocker is a great thing! 8 damage base... ap-half for up to force 8.

Don't forget firing at point blank (+dice), firing in melee (-dice)... but defender in melee against ranged (-3 dice!!!) on the spirit helps a lot too!


GM is balking that I want my dwarven mage to have personalized grip, firing modification (SS -> SA) and laser sight built into his.
(personalized grip is both +1 dice to using it in melee, and -1RC on ranged, +1 dice laser ranged, and SA would give 2 shots per pass off the 4dart magazine). And the great thing is, none of it is 'R' legality! It's a weapon which won't raise alarm bells even in moderate/high sec environs.

Granted said dwarf's normal response to spirits is a force 9 stunbolt... but I've started to make extensive use of mana static given his rampant abuse of high force bug spirits and the taser works better under some of those situations.

[Particle_Beam]

No. If magic can deflect a bullet, then in can deflect your 100 rounds ammo belt. Get a bigger weapon, a sniper, or take shooting lessons.


Killing a spirit ain't that bad. You aim, you use a called shot. +4 damage, making an assault rifle good enough against Force 5, and with a bit of luck, Force 6. For anything bigger, well, there are other solutions.

So that has been changed for the 20th anniversary edition of Shadowrun?
You could mow down a spirit before with machine guns. Why would they change that rule? Were awakened characters' pet creepies from other dimensions still too weak? Mundanes still a threat to the omnipotence of Full Mages?

[Cwell]

So that has been changed for the 20th anniversary edition of Shadowrun?
You could mow down a spirit before with machine guns. Why would they change that rule? Were awakened characters' pet creepies from other dimensions still too weak? Mundanes still a threat to the omnipotence of Full Mages?

No, you could not. Burst is not working for Hardened bypass since SR4 (and to compare with modified armor for stun/physical damage) :

Narrow Bursts
Narrow bursts are intended to inflict a target with maximum damage. Narrow bursts increase the attack’s DV by +2.
Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating.

So you need net hits, gun mods (-AP/+DV) and nice ammo to stack up, not burst/full auto fire.

[Cwell]

Brilliant! Problems with spirits? Beat them into submission with a Stun baton! Turns your average mall cop into Simon the Spirit Slayer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

You still have to hit it and then bypass the modified Hardened Armor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
A F6 spirit would have 6 in Unarmed Combat & Reaction (modified by Materialization), with his 12 Hardened Armor and 6 Body (modified by Materialization). It also has 2 IPs when materialized. Now, if it has Elemental Aura crap, you'll feel the pain (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)
Not a walk in the park considering it also has other notable powers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
That Mall Cop will still run away screaming like a scared schoolgirl at the sight of a materialized Spirit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Kliko]

A F6 spirit would have 6 in Unarmed Combat & Reaction (modified by Materialization), with his 12 Hardened Armor and 6 Body (modified by Materialization).
Not a walk in the park considering it also has other notable powers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
That Mall Cop will still run away screaming like a scared schoolgirl at the sight of a materialized Spirit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That's the catch for electrical attacks... they are resisted with half impact armor. In the previous example that makes for Force x 2 x 1/2= Force hardened armor to overcome with your base damage. A sr3 stun baton makes for 6 Serious damage (an AZ-150 even more). Now the point is ok, your mall cop will be owned by a materialized force 6 spirit. But materialized Force 1-4?

[Umidori]

So you need net hits, gun mods (-AP/+DV) and nice ammo to stack up, not burst/full auto fire.

Once again Magic and Logic butt heads.

So if you shoot a single bullet at someone and do a great job of aiming, you can bypass magical weapon immunity. But if you fire three bullets and do a slightly poorer job of aiming, you don't. Nevermind the fact that hardened armor makes no sense to begin with. I mean, let's say I buy the fact that these spirits can somehow just absorb blows of up to a certain amount of kinetic energy, does that mean I'm somehow making a single bullet that normally wouldn't bypass the armor hit harder by rolling well? And somehow I'm hitting harder than I would with three separate bullets impacting the target?

~Umidori