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> Armor and gel packs!
AKWeaponsSpecial...
post Mar 18 2010, 01:26 PM
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Okay, so I came across something rather....interesting in Arsenal. With the Gel Pack modification, one gains +1/+1 armor. Does this also apply to the SecureTech PPP system? If so, for the price of -1 Body for Knockdown tests, a Body 4 character could have:
FFBA Half-Suit: 4/1
Bike Racing Armor: 4/7
+helmet +1/+2
PPP Forearm guard*s: +1/+2
PPP Helmet*: +1/+3
PPP Leg and Arm casings*: +2/+2
PPP Shin guards*: +1/+2
PPP Vitals Protector*: +2/+2
*PPP equipped with Gel Packs

for a grand total of 16/21 ARMOR. With 0 (zero) encumbrance penalty for a 4 body character. Is there anything RAW that would prevent a character from doing this?
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Summerstorm
post Mar 18 2010, 01:34 PM
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Well yes. the PPP is not an armor. It is just a armor-enhancing modular system. It can not take any modifications.

Tsetse... things people try nowadays *g*.

EDIT: Ah let me edit this... this was the GM in me talking: Nobody would ever allow that. But raw the PPP system of course have no mention of disallowing mods, and yes the phrasing for it is ARMOR. So if you have a weird GM: Yes i think you COULD do it.
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AKWeaponsSpecial...
post Mar 18 2010, 01:43 PM
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As a GM I'd allow it. Then again, should the enemy need him D-E-D dead, they'll find a mage. Or drop a cyborg on him. Preferably from orbit. Plus, walking down the street looking like Darth Vader SHOULD draw some attention. Unless you're riding a motorcycle (or in a van) on the way to a run, there WILL be consequences for using this combo.
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Stahlseele
post Mar 18 2010, 01:43 PM
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A weird GM that plays by the rules and is open to debate involving his favourite sweets on one side and a heavy book on the other hand?
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Achsin
post Mar 18 2010, 01:44 PM
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And said character would actually be encumbered (at least according to how I read Arsenal), and honestly, how do you wear two helmets at once and stay functional?
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AKWeaponsSpecial...
post Mar 18 2010, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (Achsin @ Mar 18 2010, 05:44 AM) *
And said character would actually be encumbered (at least according to how I read Arsenal), and honestly, how do you wear two helmets at once and stay functional?


QUOTE
SECURETECH PPP-SYSTEM
...Each piece of armor is available in at least three styles: as discreet protection designed to be worn beneath other clothing, as an obvious strapped addition to other visible armor, and as sports equipment.


Either option 1 or 2 could apply here, with a thin helmet between the motorcycle helmet and the head, or as a strapped-on addition to the motorcycle helmet.

QUOTE ( @ Mar 18 2010, 05:43 AM) *
A weird GM that plays by the rules and is open to debate involving his favourite sweets on one side and a heavy book on the other hand?

I'm afraid I didn't quite understand this.....could you please explain?
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forgarn
post Mar 18 2010, 02:21 PM
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If I were to allow it, it would only be for the "obvious strapped addition to other visible armor" style.
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Starfish
post Mar 18 2010, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (AKWeaponsSpecialist @ Mar 18 2010, 02:26 PM) *
Okay, so I came across something rather....interesting in Arsenal. With the Gel Pack modification, one gains +1/+1 armor. Does this also apply to the SecureTech PPP system? If so, for the price of -1 Body for Knockdown tests, a Body 4 character could have:
FFBA Half-Suit: 4/1
Bike Racing Armor: 4/7
+helmet +1/+2
PPP Forearm guard*s: +1/+2
PPP Helmet*: +1/+3
PPP Leg and Arm casings*: +2/+2
PPP Shin guards*: +1/+2
PPP Vitals Protector*: +2/+2
*PPP equipped with Gel Packs

for a grand total of 16/21 ARMOR. With 0 (zero) encumbrance penalty for a 4 body character. Is there anything RAW that would prevent a character from doing this?


As far as I know, only the FFBA provides reduced encumberance for itself. The way I read Arsenal, the PPP modifies the worn armor to form a new total protection (just like helmets and shields do), and is not counted as separate pieces of armor. The gel packs work similar, I believe; adding their protection to the total armor and not each component separately.

Even if one would allow to apply gel packs to every single component of the armor, they would still get factored into the total encumberance. So, if I'm mistaken, a 4 body character would suffer a -6 penalty for wearing such a suit.
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forgarn
post Mar 18 2010, 02:46 PM
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I would agree. You are modifying the Bike Racing armor to make the total armor of that item 12/20 which is 12 points over the B*2 of 8, so yes a -6 would occur.

QUOTE (SR4A @ pg. 161)
If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies. Note that some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor.

Too much armor, however, can slow a character down. If either of a character’s armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modifier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof ) that his Body x 2 is exceeded.


this does not say anything about with or without mods so I would have to go with the with mods total armor score of the armor modified.
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AKWeaponsSpecial...
post Mar 18 2010, 02:54 PM
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Ah. For some reason, I thought helmets+shields didn't count towards encumbrance. So now someone who wants to use chemical seal'd full body armor would need 6 body, and in order to not be slowed down by your armor on a motorcycle, you either go without your armor or have 5 body. Suddenly corpsec and combat bikers are a LOT more hardcore.
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FriendoftheDork
post Mar 18 2010, 02:57 PM
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Obvious example that the arsenal armor rules are broken. No FFBA in my game. No matter how many layers and modules and upgrades, there should be no armor better than the best milspec armor.

It's like putting on an extra quilted shirt under the Full Plate armor to get super armor (Full plate already includes padding).

@AKW: Or you use the optional rules from Arsenal that allows one to wear one suit of armor without encumbrance. Corpsec with body 4 should be able to handle the lightweight full body armor in the core book. It is desgned to be obvious but light and flexible.
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AKWeaponsSpecial...
post Mar 18 2010, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 18 2010, 06:57 AM) *
Obvious example that the arsenal armor rules are broken. No FFBA in my game. No matter how many layers and modules and upgrades, there should be no armor better than the best milspec armor.

It's like putting on an extra quilted shirt under the Full Plate armor to get super armor (Full plate already includes padding).

@AKW: Or you use the optional rules from Arsenal that allows one to wear one suit of armor without encumbrance. Corpsec with body 4 should be able to handle the lightweight full body armor in the core book. It is desgned to be obvious but light and flexible.


Actually, with the optional rule it says "a single armor item" so if you're wearing a helmet with it, no dice.
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ZeroPoint
post Mar 18 2010, 04:13 PM
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My interpretation and ruling as GM: FFBA can't accept gel packs or any mods that would change its structure or it would no longer be form fitting. Gel packs with PPP don't stack because they are on seperate points of the body. While the normal armor bonus from the parts stack because of improved coverage, only one gel pack can activate from a single gunshot wound so you only get the benefit once.

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Rotbart van Dain...
post Mar 18 2010, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Mar 18 2010, 05:13 PM) *
FFBA can't accept gel packs or any mods that would change its structure or it would no longer be form fitting.

Umg… Gel Packs are pretty much the most form-fitting element of any armor you are going to find.

The issue with them is being obvious.
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ZeroPoint
post Mar 18 2010, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 18 2010, 11:24 AM) *
Umg… Gel Packs are pretty much the most form-fitting element of any armor you are going to find.



And they are bulky...it might be flexible but its no longer like a second skin. Its not gonna fit with other armor to well.
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FriendoftheDork
post Mar 18 2010, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (AKWeaponsSpecialist @ Mar 18 2010, 04:05 PM) *
Actually, with the optional rule it says "a single armor item" so if you're wearing a helmet with it, no dice.


Yes, it also says it doesn't apply if you're using ALOT of armor accessories, such a helmets etc. One suit of full body armor with it's accompanying helmet is hardly that. Start adding on modulated armor, FFBA etc. then you're talking "no dice".
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Saint Sithney
post Mar 19 2010, 02:24 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 18 2010, 06:57 AM) *
Obvious example that the arsenal armor rules are broken. No FFBA in my game. No matter how many layers and modules and upgrades, there should be no armor better than the best milspec armor.


I suppose the problem isn't the layering of the high-tensile ballistic webbing under the tempered alloy ballistic plate armor. The real issue is that the latter is also custom fitted, so if you had it fitted with the FFBA on, you would always have to be wearing the FFBA or else it might be too loose.

But I do see your point that any armor designed to be the best, most efficient full body armor possible would already feature ballistic webbing in spades, but that's an assumption which isn't really supported by a lot of the other gear in the book. For example, it seems like any high-end, new tech weapon should come with an old tech like the smartgun system as, if not standard, as a standard option. So, a 2000¥ handgun like the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki or the 8000¥ AA-16 shotgun needing to pay double for an internal smartgun system, how is that not just as asinine as Milspec armor lacking FFBA tech?
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FriendoftheDork
post Mar 19 2010, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 19 2010, 03:24 AM) *
I suppose the problem isn't the layering of the high-tensile ballistic webbing under the tempered alloy ballistic plate armor. The real issue is that the latter is also custom fitted, so if you had it fitted with the FFBA on, you would always have to be wearing the FFBA or else it might be too loose.

But I do see your point that any armor designed to be the best, most efficient full body armor possible would already feature ballistic webbing in spades, but that's an assumption which isn't really supported by a lot of the other gear in the book. For example, it seems like any high-end, new tech weapon should come with an old tech like the smartgun system as, if not standard, as a standard option. So, a 2000¥ handgun like the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki or the 8000¥ AA-16 shotgun needing to pay double for an internal smartgun system, how is that not just as asinine as Milspec armor lacking FFBA tech?


Well a smartlink is an optional enhancement, not something that everyone would want. The price is a bit weird, but I suppose you'll have to replace alot of gun parts and thus more expensive guns costs more if you want a smartlink in it (unless it's factory built). For comparison, even the best milspec armor would still require extra cost to add Nonconducting. But heavy Milspec armor should simply be the best armor there is, and no additional armor or layers should be necessary or useful. Armor enhancements are something else as people have different needs.
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Kraegor
post Mar 20 2010, 12:16 AM
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Just remember the golden rule as a GM.

"Players, if you can do it. The NPCs can do it too. And there are a *lot* smarter NPCs out there than you guys."

So let them do it.

Just means everyone else in the game will be running around with 16/21 armor too. For a few extra hundred ¥ why not?

Who wouldn't deck out their commandos in tons of extra non encumbranced armor for 500¥ - 1000¥ apiece?

Just makes guns less deadly, combat last longer, and more time for the bad guys support to show up.

Once you tell them that.. I am sure they will go like.. Umm.. no lets house rule it that its a no go.

No one wants a street samurai opponent facing them with 30/30 armor because of a loophole rule.

Trust me, you start using what they do against them, and they will quickly be stopping it or making deals with you to have you stop.
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Saint Sithney
post Mar 20 2010, 12:33 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 19 2010, 07:00 AM) *
Well a smartlink is an optional enhancement, not something that everyone would want.


The AA-16 is a SotA purpose-built military full-auto shotgun. Not including a standard smartgun system on it in the 2070s is like not including power steering on a high end sports car in the 1970s.

But nonsense doesn't excuse further nonsense. It only confirms it.
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toturi
post Mar 20 2010, 01:07 AM
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QUOTE (Kraegor @ Mar 20 2010, 08:16 AM) *
Just remember the golden rule as a GM.

"Players, if you can do it. The NPCs can do it too. And there are a *lot* smarter NPCs out there than you guys."

So let them do it.

Perhaps. Player characters can do it, then so can NPCs if there are smart enough but what if they aren't? For example if the PC that thought this out had Logic 5+ with Armorer 4+. How many NPCs are that good? Sure, if said PC had Logic 1 and no Armorer, you could say that there's a lot of smarter NPCs out there, but if the guy has Superior human Logic and very good at what he does, I would allow it without mirroring.

And the Golden Rule as a GM isn't "if you do it, so can I", it is "Let's have fun".
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Stahlseele
post Mar 20 2010, 01:31 AM
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Personally, i like the "if you can do it, so can i" rule.
Because i do the same if the GM starts something.
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Tanegar
post Mar 20 2010, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 19 2010, 08:07 PM) *
Perhaps. Player characters can do it, then so can NPCs if there are smart enough but what if they aren't? For example if the PC that thought this out had Logic 5+ with Armorer 4+. How many NPCs are that good? Sure, if said PC had Logic 1 and no Armorer, you could say that there's a lot of smarter NPCs out there, but if the guy has Superior human Logic and very good at what he does, I would allow it without mirroring.

And the Golden Rule as a GM isn't "if you do it, so can I", it is "Let's have fun".

This seems to assume the opposition does their own technical work. That's probably true if you're fighting a gang, but corpsec has people to do that for them, and it's a fairly safe bet that those technicians are of at least average mental capacity (Logic 3+) and trained to a professional standard (Armorer 4+).
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Saint Sithney
post Mar 20 2010, 02:03 AM
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It could well be argued that high Logic might prevent someone from thinking that adding gel pads to shin guards is going to provide equivalent benefit to installing the same thing over a much larger, more vital area.... Maybe it's like in cartoons where the character only falls when they look down and see that they're no longer standing on anything.

"Sorry bruh, but your Armorer skill is high enough that you're fully aware of how asinine that is, so it won't work for you."
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toturi
post Mar 20 2010, 02:07 AM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 20 2010, 09:32 AM) *
This seems to assume the opposition does their own technical work. That's probably true if you're fighting a gang, but corpsec has people to do that for them, and it's a fairly safe bet that those technicians are of at least average mental capacity (Logic 3+) and trained to a professional standard (Armorer 4+).

I do assume that the opposition does their own tech work, but that assumption is more along the lines of "AAAs do their own technical work".

QUOTE
"Sorry bruh, but your Armorer skill is high enough that you're fully aware of how asinine that is, so it won't work for you."
Or that it could be "That's so cool! Your Armorer skill is high enough that you think it is a revolutionary idea and you are struck by how brilliant it is!"
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