[X] My Assistant

[Daylen]

Way to be judgmental and vocal about it.

yep. people are coddled too much and I will not contribute to such sissyness. I've never seen a competitive person like being handed a victory. course this is starting to get off topic...

[kjones]

Players sitting around with their thumbs up their asses during combat is plenty annoying, to be sure, but it's also really annoying when players sit around for ages debating minor decisions under any circumstances. Our hacker spent about fifteen minutes trying to decide whether he wanted to hack a node on the fly or probe it - there was nothing on the node that mattered at all and I was trying to drop hints that he was wasting his time, but he just couldn't make up his mind.

At times like this I don't know what to do other than have the party attacked by a random marauding band of ninjas.

[toturi]

ya mean losers.

So you like losing, that's fine. But I do expect most people to like winning.

yep. people are coddled too much and I will not contribute to such sissyness. I've never seen a competitive person like being handed a victory. course this is starting to get off topic...

I am a competitive person and I don't care how I get my victories. Handed one or not, a victory is a victory. And people who get victories are victors, winners not losers.

[Daylen]

I am a competitive person and I don't care how I get my victories. Handed one or not, a victory is a victory. And people who get victories are victors, winners not losers.

competitive, but don't like competing? winning easily is ok, but boring after a while. The best victories are hard fought. well I guess Conan type victories are ok as well as long as the losing party cries.

[Wounded Ronin]

In general players never come up with the solution to a puzzle or complex problem the GM expects. This is because the GM has a lot of unspoken assumptions and information that he will never verbalize in entirety to the PCs. This is likely the problem the OP is butting against. I feel a good GM should have a lot of diagrams and a carefully constructed text in writing that spells out all the information that will come into play when looking at the diagrams.

[Fatum]

yep. people are coddled too much and I will not contribute to such sissyness. I've never seen a competitive person like being handed a victory. course this is starting to get off topic...

And but of course, everyone should be exactly like you.
Apparently, everyone is having fun the wrong way, and only you know the only right one.

[Daylen]

And but of course, everyone should be exactly like you.
Apparently, everyone is having fun the wrong way, and only you know the only right one.

Did I say everyone should have fun like me? I'm fine with people being losers I just don't care to mince words about it.

[toturi]

Did I say everyone should have fun like me? I'm fine with people being losers I just don't care to mince words about it.

Join the club. Unless you can claim to win all the time, there are times where you are a loser. But then again I could just concede defeat and hand you the victory for this argument, in which case you are still a loser because by your definition, a loser is someone who has victory handed to them.

[Lok1 :)]

Way to be judgmental and vocal about it.
People play games to have fun. Having fun most often includes winning, y'know.

If you can't figure out how to win, it isn't the GMs job to make you. He can only give you the chance to succed, if you can't win the game that dosn't mean you can't have fun doing it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't like to impose time restrictions but I do implement the 30 second rule when people are piss farting around at a dramatically intense moment.

I have one player in particular that if he cannot belabour the point for a full 10 minutes and discuss it with everyone, he cannot decide on a single course of action. Thus when we hit the 30 second rule, he either routinely passes his action (!!!) or determines a course of action that is so ineffectual he literally puts himself out of the scene entirely for reasons I cannot fathom.

I also have other players who claim to know the rules but I'm convinced do not. E.g. I have an AI hacker who has a Cracking skill group of 3 and hasn't raised it since character creation over a year ago. This was before he purchased Agents to help him out too. Sigh.

- J.

Hey... What is wrong with a Cracking skill rating of 3? Seems to be working pretty well for me currently.

2 of the 3 skills in that group for me are a 3 (group has been broken); though I admit that I have raised them over the course of play... still trying to get them to a 4, will eventually get there I guess...

Keep the Faith (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Daylen]

Join the club. Unless you can claim to win all the time, there are times where you are a loser. But then again I could just concede defeat and hand you the victory for this argument, in which case you are still a loser because by your definition, a loser is someone who has victory handed to them.

Touche'. I don't claim to win all the time, on occasion I am the loser. Without real struggle and competition though there can be no victory, and that is something even Princeton will agree with me on: a successful ending of a struggle or contest.

[Daylen]

Cracking skill rating of 3?

am I the only one who chuckles and thinks "we're crackers because we crack the system" every time someone mentions that skill?

[kigmatzomat]

Some players just don't get some settings. Its not that they're stupid, the setting just doesn't do anything for them. Many people have trouble with "urban" campaigns for some reason.

Consider throwing a run out in the boondocks, either a guard run, looting a facility that dropped off the books during the Crashes, or a bug hunt. Something that is more in the style they are accustomed to. Ease them into the setting and mechanics. Let them kill some stuff.

[kigmatzomat]

Some players just don't get some settings. Its not that they're stupid, the setting just doesn't do anything for them. Many people have trouble with "urban" campaigns for some reason.

Consider throwing a run out in the boondocks, either a guard run, looting a facility that dropped off the books during the Crashes, or a bug hunt. Something that is more in the style they are accustomed to. Ease them into the setting and mechanics. Let them kill some stuff.

[nemafow]

Touche'. I don't claim to win all the time, on occasion I am the loser. Without real struggle and competition though there can be no victory, and that is something even Princeton will agree with me on: a successful ending of a struggle or contest.

I personally don't think there is any 'winners' or 'losers' in roleplaying (not in the way you guys see it anyways), just because I fail a mission or my character dies, does not mean I 'lose'. I 'lose' if I'm not having fun, and I 'win' if I'm having fun.
Personal preference though, take it with a grain of salt, I'm not saying my way is 'right' or yours is 'wrong' though

[The Jake]

Hey... What is wrong with a Cracking skill rating of 3? Seems to be working pretty well for me currently.

2 of the 3 skills in that group for me are a 3 (group has been broken); though I admit that I have raised them over the course of play... still trying to get them to a 4, will eventually get there I guess...

Keep the Faith (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

I wouldn't complain if he was a more well rounded character but this character was used for online hacking only and was lacking critical programs required to even properly control drones and skills until more recently.

- J.

[Whipstitch]

I just really, really object to the idea that people are losers for using gaming as a form of escapism. Sometimes sessions are good for just blowing off some steam, others are more like collaborative problem solving. It's why my own group has been known to just drop a planned session in favor of playing Munchkin or coming up with a quick one shot if people don't feel like playing a more in-depth game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I wouldn't complain if he was a more well rounded character but this character was used for online hacking only and was lacking critical programs required to even properly control drones and skills until more recently.

- J.

Yeah, I can see where that would suck...

Keep the Faith

[The Jake]

I just really, really object to the idea that people are losers for using gaming as a form of escapism. Sometimes sessions are good for just blowing off some steam, others are more like collaborative problem solving. It's why my own group has been known to just drop a planned session in favor of playing Munchkin or coming up with a quick one shot if people don't feel like playing a more in-depth game.

I don't think the comments were calling players losers for desiring escapism but rather if the game was being used to "win" whatever the cost. Some people are only happy if they get to roll buckets of dice and laugh maniacally wading through whatever opposition the GM can pit against them. It ain't roleplaying at that point, its just rollplaying.

- J.

[Fatum]

If you can't figure out how to win, it isn't the GMs job to make you. He can only give you the chance to succed, if you can't win the game that dosn't mean you can't have fun doing it.

It's GM's job to make sure everyone is having fun.
If the players just can't grasp what his preferred running style is all about, if they don't feel like doing whatever they're supposed to be doing, and it's up to GM to change the game to fit their expectations more.

I don't think the comments were calling players losers for desiring escapism but rather if the game was being used to "win" whatever the cost.

Certainly didn't look like it.

[Dwight]

Certainly didn't look like it.

Personally I couldn't figure out WTF was going on. I still can't, every post since then has been a total cypher to me. Except for the tangent chatter about the Cracking 3 character and The Jake's suggestion about the timer, the latter I find to be a dubious suggestion given the results he saw.


Perhaps this is how the OP's players feel? Left in the dark by cryptic messages?

[The Jake]

Personally I couldn't figure out WTF was going on. I still can't, every post since then has been a total cypher to me. Except for the tangent chatter about the Cracking 3 character and The Jake's suggestion about the timer, the latter I find to be a dubious suggestion given the results he saw.


Perhaps this is how the OP's players feel? Left in the dark by cryptic messages?

I am the first to admit I'm perhaps not the best role model. In many ways, some of my GMing tactics border on pure evil IMHO. Then again, my missus listens in on my sessions and she's admitted that if she were GMing she would have murdered several of my players long ago.

Take that for what you will.

- J.

[Dwight]

Then again, my missus listens in on my sessions and she's admitted that if she were GMing she would have murdered several of my players long ago.

I've learned, the hard way, to just stop playing with people that need the murdering. At lot less digging required, less clutter in the crawlspaces.

Stress (noun)
The confusion caused when ones mind overrides the body’s natural desire to choke the living shit out of some asshole that desperately needs it.

[The Jake]

I've learned, the hard way, to just stop playing with people that need the murdering. At lot less digging required, less clutter in the crawlspaces.

Stress (noun)
The confusion caused when ones mind overrides the body’s natural desire to choke the living shit out of some asshole that desperately needs it.

*deep breath*

One of my players (the one who kept passing turns) rarely gets to play because his wife won't let him out. He won't attend for a month and then attempts to cram 3-4 weeks of roleplaying moments into one session, repeatedly trying to steal the thunder of all the other players. He also does incredibly stupid things with his character that annoys the crap out of the other players.

Case in point, he plays an eagle shapeshifter who insists on doing aerial recon every mission, irrespective of whether or not it is appropriate. He also insists on shapeshifting at the most inappropriate time, solely for dramatic effort, with no regard for whether this will inconvenience the other PCs or draw attention to them all, or just elevate hostilities. We would have murdered him years ago except for the fact we largely pity him - that and his general insanity often leads to moments of pure genius once every ten sessions or so that is a marvel to behold (often saving the day in a spectacular way).

Whenever he does something blatantly stupid now, I deal with this now by simply telling him "no". I don't ask him if he's sure, I don't try to clarify his intentions, I don't try to talk him out of it. The clownshoe never learns. Ever. He firmyl believes that all his ideas are brilliant. Killing off his character doesn't get the point across (this has been done in numerous campaigns - in D&D it was so common it was a running gag that he was the most resurrected character). Logical attempts at persuasion usually lead to heated arguments, often with multiple players that go nowhere and consume valuable gametime.

So I avoid it all by just saying "no".

Yes, it sucks to rob the player of his right to choose but as far as I'm concerned, the right for him to swing his fist ends where another persons' nose begins. Him sucking up valuable game time and causing arguments with his stupidity needs to be stamped out, not entertained and it caters to the lowest common denominator (i.e. the rest of the group). After 10+ years of playing with this guy, this method I have found to be the swiftest way to end disputes, keep arguments at a minimum and propel the game along.

I can give more examples of the player behaviour I have to tolerate at times but I think you get the idea.

- J.

[toturi]

I don't think the comments were calling players losers for desiring escapism but rather if the game was being used to "win" whatever the cost. Some people are only happy if they get to roll buckets of dice and laugh maniacally wading through whatever opposition the GM can pit against them. It ain't roleplaying at that point, its just rollplaying.

- J.

Laughing maniacally while wading through whatever opposition the GM can pit against them is a role. People claiming to be roleplaying often ignore that because it doesn't fit their idealised vision of talky-talky touchy-feely.

The problem is many times we hear one side of the story. The GM comes along and tells us his sob story. Or the player does. We almost never get a balanced picture.